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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #3511
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    I was wondering if it is possible to extract the models from any of the OG Xbox games. I was curious to see what the Halo games were running, maybe also PGR games also. Another that would be interesting as a comparison would be Outrun 2/Outrun 2006 as a Xbox to PS2 port/conversion. Just wondering..

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    Further back in the thread (way back) someone mentioned Xbox and Wii get a little too complicated. It's something I'd like to know about Xenoblade. Character models I know are low but those environments are massive for any game even now. That game is well beyond what DC or PS2 could do. Even Gamecube itself despite the fact Wii is overlocked GCN hardware. It pushed that system to its limit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Further back in the thread (way back) someone mentioned Xbox and Wii get a little too complicated. It's something I'd like to know about Xenoblade. Character models I know are low but those environments are massive for any game even now. That game is well beyond what DC or PS2 could do. Even Gamecube itself despite the fact Wii is overlocked GCN hardware. It pushed that system to its limit.
    Well iam looking at a few 3ds games. Specifically right now the resident evil mercenaries3d. Ill tell you right now its running below 3 million polygons per second at 30 fps judging by the assets. The fact they manage to reduce what is basically resident evil 5 to that is amazing. Stages like 40k to 60k , playBle characters are like 3.5k to 4k triangles. ( with lods below 1k triangles). Grunt enemies below 3k with lods below 1k. Guns a few hundred triangles with even lower lods.
    Surprising considering 3ds is slightly below wii in specs. Might actually be close to gamecube. At least for that game.

    I remember someone saying it isnt possible to lower graphical standards and still maintain core of the game lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I remember someone saying it isnt possible to lower graphical standards and still maintain core of the game lol
    Do you remember from memory the numbers I asked for in the last post on the previous page? I believe you did extraction at some point. I won't get into this 3DS-related conversation for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Do you remember from memory the numbers I asked for in the last post on the previous page? I believe you did extraction at some point. I won't get into this 3DS-related conversation for now.
    Not your beck and call to just do random games. Ill share with you off the top of my head from the games i extracted, not a complete list. I post this more because the info has been buried in trash or i havent posted yet on this site. All these numbers are assets extracted not emulator.

    Crazy taxi2
    low lod taxi - 1,500 triangles

    hi lod taxi( for front camera shots or when the car front becomes visible during drift in gameplay) - 2,500 triangles

    low lod taxi packed with 4 pedestrians ( max number in gameplay, each one around 600) - 4,000 triangles

    hi lod taxi witrh 4 peds - 5,000 triangles

    Stage main - around 160k triangles

    Shenmue 1 -
    ryo - 1700 triangles
    stages 20k - 75k triangles

    Shenmue 2
    Ryo - 2000 triangles around
    Ryo with cutscene hands - 3,000 triangles around
    regular stages 40,000 triangles to 80,000 triangles
    end of game stages - 90,000 triangles to 200,000 triangles

    illbleed
    main chars - 1,300 to around 1700 triangles
    enemies regular - 500 to 1,200 triangles
    Bosses - 1,000 triangles to 3,500 triangles
    stages - 11,000 (hubs) to around 50k triangles

    Blue stinger
    Elliot - 2,500 triangles + nephelim( always with him during regular fights or exploring,always cast additional blue light source) 2,900 triangles
    other main npc - 2,500 to 3,000 triangles
    mutant elliot - 3,000 triangles
    stages - 3,000 triangles to 7,500 triangles
    Regular enemies beginning of game - 1,200 triangles
    Regular enemies from mid point to end - 3,500 triangles
    Bosses - 3500 to 5,500 triangles

    Power stone 1
    player - 3,000 around
    stage - 4,000 around

    Tony hawk 1
    Player - 1,500 triangles
    stages - up to 18,000 triangles

    Card Captor
    main character - 5,000 to 6,500 triangles (whats impressive is the bone count of around 300 to 400 of it.)
    secondary characters - 1,900 triangles to 6,500 triangles
    Stage - 1,000 to 8,000 triangles

    Dead or alive 2
    characters 8,500 to close 11,000 triangles
    stages from 10,000 to close to 20,000 triangles.

    Fighting vipers 2
    Fighters around 2,500 to 3000 triangles
    Stages - around 3000 triangles.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 08-19-2022 at 09:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Well iam looking at a few 3ds games. Specifically right now the resident evil mercenaries3d. Ill tell you right now its running below 3 million polygons per second at 30 fps judging by the assets. The fact they manage to reduce what is basically resident evil 5 to that is amazing. Stages like 40k to 60k , playBle characters are like 3.5k to 4k triangles. ( with lods below 1k triangles). Grunt enemies below 3k with lods below 1k. Guns a few hundred triangles with even lower lods.
    Surprising considering 3ds is slightly below wii in specs. Might actually be close to gamecube. At least for that game.

    I remember someone saying it isnt possible to lower graphical standards and still maintain core of the game lol
    One little-known fact about Xenoblade on New 3DS. It's not a port. It's a remake. The original game just could not be ported down to even N3DS so they just remade the game and tried to look as close to the original as they could but had to go lower spec.

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    Resident Evil : the mercenaries 3d - nintendo 3ds
    This game assets were truely surprising. I guess the normal maps give a high level of detail because polygon count wise I would bet its far below 2 million polygons a second (30 fps game). Everything and pretty much almost everything has lods , though their max models arent that high. Even the maps are smaller and lower than I thought. The weapons are only a few hundred triangles but even then they have 2 or 3 lvls of lod lowering it more. I wonder if you could reduce the crapton of animations( each type of animation is seprate and each has variable subtype) these game uses maybe it could even be a 6th gen console game. And getting rid of normal maps and simplify to only low and hi lod for less memory use maybe even be a dc game considering its count is lower than re4 pc.

    Wesker(player): Hi lod - 3,660 triangles, med lod - 2,216 triangles, low lod - 957 triangles




    Hunk - hi lod - 3,758 triangles, low lod - 898 triangles



    Jill - hi lod - 3,933 triangles, med lod - 2,178 triangles low lod - 1,010 triangles




    Grunt with weapon : hi lod - 1,062 triangles, low lod - 362 triangles



    executioner boss - hi lod - 2,163 triangles, low lod - 1,281 triangles



    BOW boss( he appears only by himself in game) - 7,500 triangles


    Spanish castle - 20,603 triangles


    african town - 25,379 triangles
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 08-19-2022 at 02:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    I was wondering if it is possible to extract the models from any of the OG Xbox games. I was curious to see what the Halo games were running, maybe also PGR games also. Another that would be interesting as a comparison would be Outrun 2/Outrun 2006 as a Xbox to PS2 port/conversion. Just wondering..
    polygon count is overrated, yes there is an average for the generation that needs to be respected so that the games don't get ugly and square but that's not what matters in the end, it's the advanced visuals, physics and the whole set that matters.

    in outrun 2 xbox vs outrun 2006 xbox the 2 has a slightly better lighting and the car is closer to the screen, outrun is not a very demanding game as there are versions for xbox, ps2 and psp the difference is due to the lighting and some slightly better effects on xbox.

    here are some polygons for the sixth generation and frame rate

    Transformers Armada 12.000 (~60fps)
    shadow of the colossus PS2 Minotaur - 21.256 Snake 19.476 114 bones. Main char 3k (~30fps)
    Silent Hill 3. Heather - 5,731. Douglas - 8,799 (30fps)
    RE4 Leon 10.000 GC (30fps)
    Tomb Raider Legend Lara 9.800 (30fps, 60fps only xbox so twice polygons)
    Onimusha warlords PS2 10.000 (60fps)
    Resident evil Code Veronica PS2 Claire 3.758 (30fps)
    RE Zero Rebeca GC 10.000 (30fps)
    Black weapon has same polygons as Burnout cars (30fps)
    Jak 2 Jak 10.000 (60fps)
    Super Mario Sunshine GC Mario 1.500 Fluud 1.000 stages ~60.000 (30fps)
    Starfox Adventure Fox 3.426 Tricky 2.442 kristal 4.109 (60fps)
    The bouncer 2000 PS2, Sion, 3.056 ragdoll (60fps)
    PN03 GC Vanessa 10.000 some source says 14.993 but may be wrong (30fps)
    Metroid Prime GC Samus with cannon 9.744 or ~10K Samus 7.800 (60fps)
    The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Link - 6.900 ~8k with mare. (30fps)
    Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders, Xbox main chars - 10.000 normal chars - 3.0004.000
    Halo, Xbox, 2001 Master Chief - 2.000
    Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath Xbox - 3.000 (30fps)
    Half-Life 2, PC, 2004 Alyx Vance - 8.323 Barney - 5.922 Combine Soldier - 4.682
    PGR2 xbox the car models were comprised of 10,000 polygons (30fps)
    Gow 2 Kratos 5.700 with god armor on cutscene 8.484 (60fps)
    Silent Hill 2 main char 6.000 (30fps)
    luigis mansion 4.060 (30fps)
    Eternal Darkness the most detailed characters sporting a minimum of 5500 polygons (60fps)

    Crash Bandicoot wratj cortex 2.200 Crash Twinsanity 2.676 Tag Team Race 1.546 (60fps)
    Metal Gear solid twin snakes GC Snake 3.000 (30~60)
    Metal Gear Solid 2 PS2 snake 3.000 (60fps)
    NFL Fever 2002. supposed Each player on 2k2 was running at 1200-1500 polygons per player. Madden 2002 on the PS2 was at 2500 per player model and the Xbox's was running at a whopping 5000+ per player model, hi lod.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-19-2022 at 06:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    polygon count is overrated, yes there is an average for the generation that needs to be respected so that the games don't get ugly and square but that's not what matters in the end, it's the advanced visuals, physics and the whole set that matters.

    in outrun 2 xbox vs outrun 2006 xbox the 2 has a slightly better lighting and the car is closer to the screen, outrun is not a very demanding game as there are versions for xbox, ps2 and psp the difference is due to the lighting and some slightly better effects on xbox.

    here are some polygons for the sixth generation and frame rate

    Transformers Armada 12.000 (~60fps)
    shadow of the colossus PS2 Minotaur - 21.256 Snake 19.476 114 bones.Main char 3.000 (~30fps)
    RE4 Leon 10.000 GC (30fps)
    Tomb Raider Legend Lara 9.800 (60fps only xbox so twice polygons)
    Onimusha warlords PS2 10.000 (60fps)
    RE Zero Rebeca GC 10.000 (30fps)
    Black weapon same as Burnout (30fps)
    Jak 2 Jak 10.000 (60fps)
    The bouncer 2000 PS2, Sion, 3.056 ragdoll (60fps)
    PN03 GC Vanessa 10.000 some source says 14.993 but may be wrong (30fps)
    Metroid Prime GC Samus with cannon 9.744 ou ~10K Samus 7.800 (60fps)
    The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Link - 6.900 ~8k with mare. (30fps)
    Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders, Xbox, 2004 main chars - 10.000 normal chars - 3.0004.000
    Halo, Xbox, 2001 Master Chief - 2.000
    Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath Xbox - 3.000 (30fps)
    Half-Life 2, PC, 2004 Alyx Vance - 8.323 Barney - 5.922 Combine Soldier - 4.682
    PGR2 xbox the car models were comprised of 10,000 polygons (30fps)
    Gow 2 Kratos 5.700 (60fps) god armor cutscene 8.484

    Silent Hill 2 main char 6.000 (30fps)
    luigis mansion 4.060 (30fps)
    Eternal Darkness the most detailed characters sporting a minimum of 5500 polygons (60fps)
    Super Mario Sunshine GC Mario 1.500 Fluud 1.000 stages ~60.000 (30fps)
    Starfox adventure Fox 3.426 Tricky 2.442 kristal 4.109 (60fps)
    Crash Bandicoot wratj cortex 2.200 Crash Twinsanity 2.676 Tag Team Race 1.546 (60fps)
    Metal Gear solid twin snakes Snake 4.443 (30~60)
    Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath Xbox - 3.000 (30fps)
    Metal Gear Solid 2 snake 3.800 (~60fps)
    NFL Fever 2002. Each player on 2k2 was running at 1200-1500 polygons per player. Madden 2002 on the PS2 was at 2500 per player model and the Xbox's was running at a whopping 5000+ per player model.
    I actually just did pn03, vanessa has two models one aBove 10k and one around 9k which is the gameplay model.

    Also that metal gear solid 2 number is wrong. I just did that one two if you check beyond3d. Snake is 3k for his gameplay model. Further more the stages in that game are around 5k to 15k and regular enemies around 1,500.

    Twin snakes on gamecube is even less demanding. Pretty much every human non grunt model is 3k. With grunts being 1.5k to 2.2k. Stages are lower too, around 7k to 9k tops.

    Its wrong to say outrun2 wasnt demanding. The psp version is very gutted. Models had to be redone , had to be retextured in much lower quality even compared to ps2. The frame rate moves between 30fps and 60. It was completely reworked.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 08-19-2022 at 06:40 PM.

  10. #3520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Also that metal gear solid 2 number is wrong. I just did that one two if you check beyond3d. Snake is 3k for his gameplay model. Further more the stages in that game are around 5k to 15k and regular enemies around 1,500.

    Twin snakes on gamecube is even less demanding. Pretty much every human non grunt model is 3k. With grunts being 1.5k to 2.2k. Stages are lower too, around 7k to 9k tops.

    Its wrong to say outrun2 wasnt demanding.
    interesting, I never imagined it would have such low stages, this makes me believe what the Eternal Darkness Dev said that his game stages were around 8k. I would really like to know the numbers of GodHand, Primal, shadow of Rome (60fps) Ghosthunter, Onimusha 3 (60fps) I read that it was around 6k but never found the source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    interesting, I never imagined it would have such low stages, this makes me believe what the Eternal Darkness Dev said that his game stages were around 8k. I would really like to know the numbers of GodHand, Primal, shadow of Rome (60fps) Ghosthunter, Onimusha 3 (60fps) I read that it was around 6k but never found the source.
    I was very surprised too. Mgs2 is more demanding than twin snakes for sure. The cutscene stages can hit around 20k to30k but otherwise the actual gameplay stages are relatively low topping out at 15k, also each main character has many many differentof detail models meant for cutscenes ranging from 3,8k to 4,5k but gameplay is 3k, codec models around 1.5 to 2k.

    Twin snakes stages dont go higher than around 8k. Only snakes watersuit model is over 4k otherwise his gameplay model is 3k and so is every boss.with exception of metal gear who is around 4k. It wouldnt be an exaggeration to say make it 30 fps and you got yourself a dc game. Most grunts are 1.4k to 2k with one round helmet grunt being 2.2k odly enough. Ive seen the collision models , simpler than i thought, pretty much a box per limb.

    Metal gear solid 3 is whole different ballgame, that game was massively upgraded. Grunts around 2,4k and snake gameplay model being over 4k. Stages received massive polygon boost too. Ive seen some around 20k without props in them , they definitely learned how to use the ps2 alot more by then.

    I also did maken x and it was interesting, reminds me of twin snakes with how its designed and its a 60 fps game. Arm models are around 1.5k and cutscene models are 2.5 to 3k. Stage segments are from 4k to 8.5k. Bosses are around 2.5k to 3k with final boss being 6.5k. Regular enemies range from 1.2k to almost 2k. Imagine had they gone for 30 fps instead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Further back in the thread (way back) someone mentioned Xbox and Wii get a little too complicated. It's something I'd like to know about Xenoblade. Character models I know are low but those environments are massive for any game even now. That game is well beyond what DC or PS2 could do. Even Gamecube itself despite the fact Wii is overlocked GCN hardware. It pushed that system to its limit.
    My main interest in seeing the OG Xbox numbers is that we've seen quite a lot of stats for Dreamcast/PS2/Gamecube and also a lot of multiplatform ports. We've also seen how the games have made the best use of those other 3 systems, but not for the OG Xbox. The PGR series is interestin as it is directly related to MSR on the Dreamcast and while I'm sure there are no shared assets between MSR and PGR, the numbers would be interesting. As for Halo, I've always throught the game's environments looked pretty complex - maybe they aren't .. again interesting to me.



    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    polygon count is overrated, yes there is an average for the generation that needs to be respected so that the games don't get ugly and square but that's not what matters in the end, it's the advanced visuals, physics and the whole set that matters.

    in outrun 2 xbox vs outrun 2006 xbox the 2 has a slightly better lighting and the car is closer to the screen, outrun is not a very demanding game as there are versions for xbox, ps2 and psp the difference is due to the lighting and some slightly better effects on xbox.

    here are some polygons for the sixth generation and frame rate

    Snip
    LOL so now polygon figures are "overrated" .. After 235 fuckin pages ... thats the funniest thing I've read all day. And as usual you talk crap about Outrun 2 without any real research. If you had bothered to look up the game you'd know that Sega developed it on the Chihiro, which is the arcade variant of the Xbox and uses 512MB of memory instead of the standard 64MB. http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=729

    Sumo Digital had to make some pretty steep cuts to get it to run on a stock Xbox, so I am curious to see a comparison of the Xbox and PS2 versions. As for your list the only one that interests me is the PGR2 numbers, but it is pretty lacking in usable information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    My main interest in seeing the OG Xbox numbers is that we've seen quite a lot of stats for Dreamcast/PS2/Gamecube and also a lot of multiplatform ports.
    you wanted the numbers I gave you the only thing missing was the Ninja Gaiden numbers.

    Tomb Raider Legend Lara 9.800 Tomb Raider Legend Lara 9.800 (30fps) only xbox is 60fps this means twice polygons than PS2 and 3x GC (runs ~20fps a lot of cuts)
    Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders, Xbox main chars - 10.000 normal chars - 3.0004.000 The games has a lot of characters on screen.
    Halo, Xbox, 2001 Master Chief - 2.000 bump mapping, large maps 30fps.
    Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath Xbox - 3.000 (30fps) large map
    Half-Life 2, PC, 2004 Alyx Vance - 8.323 Barney - 5.922 Combine Soldier - 4.682 Xbox ~20fps
    Deathrow, Xbox, 2002 Characters - up to 7,000 polygons - 55 bones - 1024x1024 textures on the bodies and 512x512 on the faces, isn't 60fps.
    DOA3 Tina = 13361 DOAU (doa 2 remake) = 16736 (60fps)
    PGR2 xbox the car models were comprised of 10,000 polygons (30fps) PGR1 less polygons 60fps
    NFL Fever 2002. 5.000+ per player model.

    polygons have always been overrated I have no doubts, you can see with your own eyes that what matters are the normal mapping, lighting effects, frame buffer effects, particles etc that destrictly reduce the model count, you don't even need to check Doom 3 or Riddick because they are low frame rate and low poly games due to the excess of feats but this is not bad is very nice look due the normal mapping, the car of PGR2 (30fps) impressed you but it's just less than the car of V-Rally 3 16k polygons a 60fps game, even PGR1 has less polygons but is 60fps. polygons doesn't say everything cause PGR2 prettier sure despite frame rate but 60fps is better than 30fps in a race game. polygons doesn't say everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    As for your list the only one that interests me is the PGR2 numbers, but it is pretty lacking in usable information.
    at least some information was useful

    information about the original xbox is naturally scarce, also my objective with the information was just to pass the amount of the polygon in the main character and the frame rate, because in the last analysis IMO it is the main character that determines the beauty of a game and the frame rate, console capacity. At same time to compare with the dreamcast numbers cause in general Dreamcast games had the main character in normal game situation around 2,000 in action games 30fps and 1.500 to 60fps games,3k+ to cutscene model or fixed cam game, i'm impressed Blue Stinger (2.500 main char active+ 2.900 to passive char) overcome this margin, animating character uses a lot of cpu power and sustaining 60fps demonstrates the gpu power (naturally they are two vague information because the main effects are not computed so it can be deduced that the person who reads knows the games) That's why I chose this frame rate and polygonal count of the main character.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-20-2022 at 01:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    you wanted the numbers I gave you the only thing missing was the Ninja Gaiden numbers.

    Tomb Raider Legend Lara 9.800 Tomb Raider Legend Lara 9.800 (30fps) only xbox is 60fps this means twice polygons than PS2 and 3x GC (runs ~20fps a lot of cuts)
    Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders, Xbox main chars - 10.000 normal chars - 3.0004.000 The games has a lot of characters on screen.
    Halo, Xbox, 2001 Master Chief - 2.000
    Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath Xbox - 3.000 (30fps)
    Half-Life 2, PC, 2004 Alyx Vance - 8.323 Barney - 5.922 Combine Soldier - 4.682 Xbox ~20fps
    Deathrow, Xbox, 2002 Characters - up to 7,000 polygons - 55 bones - 1024x1024 textures on the bodies and 512x512 on the faces
    DOA3 Tina = 13361 DOAU (doa 2 remake) = 16736
    PGR2 xbox the car models were comprised of 10,000 polygons (30fps) PGR1 less polygons 60fps
    NFL Fever 2002. 5.000+ per player model.

    polygons have always been overrated, you can see with your own eyes that what matters are the normal mapping effects, frame buffer effects, particles that destrictly reduce the model count, you don't even need to check Doom 3 or Riddick because they are low frame rate and low poly games due to the excess of feats but this is not bad is very nice look due the normal mapping, the car of PGR2 (30fps) impressed you but it's just less than the car of V-Rally 3 16k polygons a 60fps game, even PGR1 has less polygons but is 60fps.


    at least some information was useful

    information about the original xbox is naturally scarce, also my objective with the information was just to pass the amount of the polygon in the main character and the frame rate, because in the last analysis it is the main model that determines the beauty of a game and the frame rate console capacity and relieve all load and stress. At same time to compare with the dreamcast numbers cause in general Dreamcast games had the main character in normal game situation around 2,000 in action games 30fps and 1.500 to 60fps games,3k+ to cutscene model or fixed cam game, i'm impressed Blue Stinger (2.500 main char active+ 2.900 to passive main char) overcome this margin, animating character uses a lot of cpu power and sustaining 60fps demonstrates the gpu power (naturally they are two vague information because the main effects are not computed so it can be deduced that the person who reads knows the games) That's why I chose this frame rate and polygonal count of the main character.
    Youre impressed with blue stinger but not with crazy taxi 2 stat? Taxi plus 4 pedestrians ( which is the limit if remember right) is 4k. 5k if you get the hi lod to trigger. At 60 fps. All this while the peds are animated meshes. Thats not impressive while streaming the map of 160k tris?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Youre impressed with blue stinger but not with crazy taxi 2 stat? Taxi plus 4 pedestrians ( which is the limit if remember right) is 4k. 5k if you get the hi lod to trigger. At 60 fps. All this while the peds are animated meshes. Thats not impressive while streaming the map of 160k tris?

    it certainly impresses, I just didn't mention it because I was more focused on humanoid models even though some car polygon numbers were mentioned in my previous post

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