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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2896
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Skies looks amazing. Its always about the sheer number of polygons

    Just out of interest how many does Pen Pen Tricelon given it was a launch game running at 60 fps. It was such an underrated classic too. Wish we got a sequel with double the tracks and Online play.
    Also if you get time, how many polygons does Red Dog and REZ push
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  2. #2897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Skies looks amazing. Its always about the sheer number of polygons

    Just out of interest how many does Pen Pen Tricelon given it was a launch game running at 60 fps. It was such an underrated classic too. Wish we got a sequel with double the tracks and Online play.
    Also if you get time, how many polygons does Red Dog and REZ push
    Not really , skies of Arcadia also uses tremendous number of textures and massive number of bones on enemies and the stages themselves. I tried pen pen trice I tried in the past but couldn't do it so it isn't happening. Rez I haven't tried and red dog is a no go. There's other games I be done that haven't posted it about like air Force Delta and battle beasters.

  3. #2898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    The conversation didn't end. You just refused to acknowledge things that don't frame your weird perspective on color depth or even answer what I just asked you.

    sorry, I just took a while to post because I was expecting other users.

    Continuing

    Half Life works with 24 bit color depth, as stated in the Digital Foundry video Dreamcast it works with 16 bit.

    assuming that Half Life isn't a good example for a Dreamcast game, at least it serves as an example to show that on the PS2 you find 24-bit textures,

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    sorry, I just took a while to post because I was expecting other users.

    Continuing

    Half Life works with 24 bit color depth, as stated in the Digital Foundry video Dreamcast it works with 16 bit.

    assuming that Half Life isn't a good example for a Dreamcast game, at least it serves as an example to show that on the PS2 you find 24-bit textures,
    Are you serious? We had this chat before, the textures on half life on the ps2 were 8 bit depth palletized textures that were higher rez but lower color depth than dreamcast vq compressed textures, if they so wished they could have done the same on dc considering it can also do 8bit palletized textures but they rather sacrifice the rez over the color depth but ps2 doesnt really have a choice due to lack of vram. Youre just trolling arent ya because we had like a 10 page conversation on this before you relented and now you going down the same road. To simplify 8bit textures on ps2 vs 16bit vq compressed lower rez textures on dc + mipmaps. You could even go back and look at your digital foundry they mentioed the ps2 used 8 bit palletized texures.

    Or it could be you dont know what youre spewing. The ps2 half life like most ps2 games runs at a 24 bit frame buffer vs the dreamcast 16bit frame buffer thats internally rendered at 24bit then downgraded to 16bit with dithering to save vram, this is probably what you meant bu have no idea.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 03-15-2020 at 03:20 PM.

  5. #2900
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    example to show that on the PS2 you find 24-bit textures,
    That was worth a really good laugh!

    Matter of fact, the PS2's 4mb texture is the reason why a lot of games developed on the system looked washed out and colorless. It was okay for some games, but really annoying when it was used all the time.
    Last edited by turboxray; 03-15-2020 at 04:18 PM.

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    Did record of lodoss war next for the dc. Very interesting game in that in the higher levels this game has 10-20 monsters mobbing you, I figured everything would be super low poly. I was wrong while some of the low level enemies are 500 to 700 tris the higher level normal enemies are like 1k to 2k tris, thats very high considering there seems there could be almost 20 of them on the screen. The main character is close to 2k and bosses range from 2k to 6k.Its just that everything is poorly textured and badly modeled for the given count. Stages are pretty dense too.( this is all from the disc)

    main chracter -1,724 tris


    Dragon boss - 6,005 tris


    boss - 2,214 tris


    lamia creature - 1,502 tris


    reptile creature - 1,527 tris


    lizard man - 969 tris


    Four armed regular enemy - 2,036 tris


    stage ?? - 17,659 tris


    another stage - 33,713 tris

  7. #2902
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    last time i talk about it, 24 bit color depth, if it appears in Half Life it also appears in other games, but it would certainly require further investigation about it.


    it's no use you won't be able to change reality, the textures of the ps2 version are far superior and the guy from digital foundy clearly says that the ps2 has more color depth. yes it also talks about vq compression, so we can deduce that it is something even worse than the method seen in ps2.

    here 9;39

    https://youtu.be/3rTeUTV-xD0?t=579





    ps2 hardware has many possibilities and the result is there for those who want to see, and not only there cause Dreamcast and the ps2 have more than 30 games in common, in most ps2 textures match the dreamcast (quake 3 revolution) and in other cases it surpasses it (as in 18 wheeler apt) in other cases the assets are modified, at the end of the day ps2 version is better overall. I can't understand why dreamcast fans don't accept this, since the console is an older tech.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 03-15-2020 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it's no use you won't be able to change reality, the textures of the ps2 version are far superior and the guy from digital foundy clearly says that the ps2 has more color depth. yes it also talks about vq compression, so we can deduce that it is something even worse than the method seen in ps2.

    here 9;39

    https://youtu.be/3rTeUTV-xD0?t=579





    ps2 hardware has many possibilities and the result is there for those who want to see, and not only there cause Dreamcast and the ps2 have more than 30 games in common, in most ps2 textures match the dreamcast (quake 3 revolution) and in other cases it surpasses it (as in 18 wheeler apt) in other cases the assets are modified, at the end of the day ps2 version is better overall.
    +facepalm+ right where you linked in the vide he said and i quote " the dreamcast operates at a lower bit 16 bit color depth with lots of visable dithering while the ps2 operates at a higher 24 bit color depth:. Thats the rendering depth for the framebuffer numbskull. Then he says "textures are handled differently on the ps2 by using 8 bit palletized textures while the dreamcast uses vq compressed textures. dreamcast generates mip maps as usual while the ps2 does not use them."

    Are you deaf or simply a numbnuts. He says it right where you left off the ps2 is using higher rez lower depth 8 bit palletized textures!!!. He also says it lacks mip maps which in this game it works in favor of the ps2 but must mean it has distance flickers then and most likely does not do due to lack of vram to even hold the mip map copies.

    Its not about changing reality as it is what you do. It must be nice to be delusional and ignore obvious examples and hand pick the very few where it does better. Go check space channel 5 part 1 and 2 let me know what you think about those blocky ass reflection texture and overall loss of texture quality which most ports have( crazy taxi and yes evern 18 wheeler despite how much you cry to the contrary because you used the GC which has a totaly differet texture set.)

    Edit heres a nice pic to show the ps2 version which its blocky reflection, ground dashboard and corona textures. And oh thats with added anti aliasing on my behalf to clean things up. Dont compare tothe the gc version whos better.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 03-15-2020 at 09:22 PM.

  9. #2904
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    So i decided to look less at the per second count of some ps2 titles and focus on the per frame count of polygons. Compiled two list : one about games ps2 and dreamcast had in common , the other different games the ps2 had in its life time. I think it shows the ps2 was a machine with a lot potential but not necessarily you always to push 100% to get nice graphics out of it and I think this would allow to show that the dreamcast compares rather well with ps2. The ps2 titles that were dc ports may seem a bit low but it balances out when looked at the ps2 only titles.

    Titles on ps2 that were also on the dreamcast:

    crazy taxi - 8,978 tris/ frame


    gundam : federation vs zeon - 10,657 tris/ frame


    Headhunter - 10,765 tris/frame


    test drive lemans - 20,393 tris / frame


    looney toons space race - 18,052 tris


    space channel 5 part2 - 22,651 tris


    Sega sports tennis 2k2 - 25,527 tris


    wacky races - 33,486 tris


    typing of the dead - 7,958 tris


    Death crimson 2 - 15,248 tris( special case, the dc version most likely can go higher because on the ps2 the cutscenes are no longer real time and on the dc they are,further more in the cutscenes on the each main characters is 7k and theres always 2 on screen).


    Ps2 games through out the years:

    Mar heaven(2005) - 23,167 tris / frame


    Oh my goddess!(2007) - 10,490 tris / frame


    NBA 2k2 (2001) - 58,110 tris / frame( this is here because even though it came out the same time as the version and gameplay is exactly the same the character models are way way higher polygon count compared to the dc version)


    Neopets the darkest faerie(2005) - 63,493 tris


    Toy story 3 (2010) - 55,029 tris


    Transformers(2004) - 90,510 tris


    Vampire Night(2001) - 21,220 tris


    Astroboy(2004) - 17,562 tris


    Zone of the enders(2001) - 16,444 tris


    NFL 2k2(2001) - 64,620 tris( same reason nba2k2 is here)

  10. #2905
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Wow, top work.
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    Next game is Musapeys choco maker on the dreamcast from 2002. Made by the same people who made death crimson 2 and ox also on the dreamcast. Judging from the files it uses the same engine as well. I didnt think it would be alot of polygons but I was wrong. This is a puzzle game using blocks, each block model is 88 triangles and the game easily can display more than 100 of them @ 60 fps. Lets say theres 50 blocks on screen x 88 triangles that easily 4,400 triangles. Thats just something to keep in mind despite the game looking not too great. Again this was extracted from disc files not emulation.


    1st player character + its ears = 2,205 tris + 344 tris = 2,549 tris



    2nd players character + ears - 2,237 tris + 344 tris = 2,581 tris



    Block -88 tris.


    Stage/background for 1 player mode- 1,600 tris
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Unlike my other breaks from this thread, I was working on projects almost constantly during it.

    Also Cloofoofoo that was a very good organized post, I can't rep.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Just out of interest how many does Pen Pen Tricelon given it was a launch game running at 60 fps. It was such an underrated classic too. Wish we got a sequel with double the tracks and Online play.
    Also if you get time, how many polygons does Red Dog and REZ push
    I've looked at Pen Pen TriIcelon, not sure when I'll post it. I'm a fan of the game, not a big fan, but still a fan. The game has a great atmosphere and good gameplay, but super low on content.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Not really , skies of Arcadia also uses tremendous number of textures and massive number of bones on enemies and the stages themselves. I tried pen pen trice I tried in the past but couldn't do it so it isn't happening. Rez I haven't tried and red dog is a no go. There's other games I be done that haven't posted it about like air Force Delta and battle beasters.
    Let me look at Air Force Delta. I've noticed theres tons of flight simulators on PS2 and a decent amount on Dreamcast.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Next game is Musapeys choco maker on the dreamcast from 2002. Made by the same people who made death crimson 2 and ox also on the dreamcast. Judging from the files it uses the same engine as well.
    Son of a bitch, you found a mid-Dreamcast game(released in December 2002) thats not a shoot-em-up. I gotta look at this. I was thinking these didn't exist, I was looking through the Wikipedia Dreamcast List for hours.
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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I will make a small post, before I make some food and get ready to post a much bigger post.


    This is Pro Rally 2002, made by Ubisoft Barcelona. Forget about Dreamcast, this game is barely a significant leap over PS1/N64 in terms of polycounts. This is likely an example of when someone puts an inexperienced team to work on something that they don't know much about.



    Aside from the good particle effects, this game gives vibes of a 1997 PC game. And you will see why once I post the polycounts.



    Not very 6th gen roadside detail.



    The weather effects aren't the worst in the world, but thats one of the few things the game has going for it.



    Now we get into polycounts. As you might have assumed, this game is 300,000 PPS on average. So even easily beaten by Tokyo Xtreme Racer from 1999. And you don't even wanna compare it to Burnout 1 released 6 months before, running at 4.2 million PPS.




    Typical scene, 300,000 PPS.



    Player car is 1300 polygons, so exact same as Tokyo Xtreme Racer(its the roadside detail that gives Tokyo Xtreme Racer the overall edge).



    Rival car is 1600 polygons. So this game doesn't have different polycounts for player car vs rival cars.



    Tractor is 300 polygons.




    So I did look in ZeroGS to make sure the polycounts seemed right and nothing was going wrong.




    One of the highest spikes in the game with all cars on screen, 700,000 PPS.



    Different player car is same 1300 polygons.



    Rival car is 1400 polygons.



    Different rival car is 1300 polygons.
    Last edited by Yharnamresident; 04-01-2020 at 08:47 PM.
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  15. #2910
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    Those textures are garbage.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?



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