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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #3346
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    So someone released a tools to extract Naomilib 3d models directly from game assets for dreamcast and naomi. Works on doa2 ,most model 3 ports and alot of naomi based games. I extracted the opera mostly from Dead or alive 2 assets. Its mostly complete , its around 10K triangles. I was able to extract and assemble jan lee from doa 2 and he is around 8000 triangles. Unfortunately I was not able to take a screenshot since it crashed and I didt save my work. I notced for both jan lee and kasumi justthe head and their torso when putting them together is around 5,000 triangles. The character models are very dense.

    Just to bring up a point the nulldc extractions proved to be way off(40k tris per frame) when you tally up this count( 8000 per character x2 + 10k and up for the stage = `26K triangles).

  2. #3347
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    This why i have no faith in am2 doing a proper port of virtua fighter 4 , given this port of fighting viper 2 was released 2001. I finally managed to assemble a character as long time of manually putting it together. I Doubt I ll do this again for this game since the unarmored version is stored with the armored version. Interestingly the unarmored version was more detailed ( resembles arcade version more)so I went with that(the face, musculature }. Bahn unarmored is 2,800 triangles , means you can stack 2 fighting vipers character together and still be !,000 to 2,000 polygons short of a single doa 2 character. The stages arent that much higher than the characters and seem to be have been massively butchered compared to the arcade version cant show yet since iam not finished assembling. Despite having such low count for a fighting game it still has slowdown on a real console, makes me wonder if maybe something behind the scene like physics or something else is holding it back. Iam willing to bet if I get to the virtua figher 3 stages they are probably slightly more detailed as are the characters and that was ported by genki.

    (Using the naomi lib tool again)

    Dreamcast:


    Arcade:

  3. #3348
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    Well still playing around withthe tools. Messing in sports jam. I got the master of ceremonies model for both his announcer role and gameplay. His announcer mesh is extremely detailed 10,754 triangles while his gameplay mesh is,2,186 triangles, very efficient modeling that keeps his look consistent with the higher poly model.

    Gameplay:


    Announcer:

  4. #3349
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    This topic is so massive. I wish I remembered what Ikaruga was and be curious to know Zero Gunner 2 and Psyvariar 2. JUst not over 200 pages of sifting. :/

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  5. #3350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    This topic is so massive. I wish I remembered what Ikaruga was and be curious to know Zero Gunner 2 and Psyvariar 2. JUst not over 200 pages of sifting. :/
    Theres no point to shmups since the stages can be as high poly as they want but only a extremely small part makes it on screen. Then each ship is far below 1,000 polygons so they can put a massive number of those in the first place on screen. For these reason I find shmups are simply not a good metric and purposely ignore it. Ill give you an example I already did, border down, the stages can around 80,000 triangles and the ships around 500 triangles. Pretty much all the shmups on the system run like this, there is no point to keep rehashing it.

    Border down dc


  6. #3351
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher Virtua Hunter's Avatar
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    sorry if it's a little off topic, I can't remember if you did the test on the other thread, but I'm curious about Ninja Gaiden 2 polygon counts on models on Xbox 360.
    Thanks

  7. #3352
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    in this thread the only conclusion we can have, is that the polygon measurements are illusions in every way and that the PS2 is far more powerful.

  8. #3353
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    in this thread the only conclusion we can have, is that the polygon measurements are illusions in every way and that the PS2 is far more powerful.
    They're a useful gauge, but can be misleading a bit. I bought the collectors edition of Call Of Duty 4 on the 360 and in that you had had an interview with the Art team and I was amazed to learn the game despite looking so much better was using fewer polygons than COD2, so Infinity Ward could bring in a new lighting model.

    I was playing Ghost Hunter on the PS2 and while the game doesn't look that great, its handling some amazing effects
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  9. #3354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    They're a useful gauge, but can be misleading a bit. I bought the collectors edition of Call Of Duty 4 on the 360 and in that you had had an interview with the Art team and I was amazed to learn the game despite looking so much better was using fewer polygons than COD2, so Infinity Ward could bring in a new lighting model.

    I was playing Ghost Hunter on the PS2 and while the game doesn't look that great, its handling some amazing effects
    Ghost Hunter has an amazing look, few games in that generation have reached its graphic quality.

    yes, but that's not exactly what I meant. The user Yharnamresident spent a good part of the time and the thread itself, only to realize that only with the Performance Analyzer we can actually know the true technical details. these measures per emulator that we see throughout the topic mean absolutely nothing and can still guide us by wrong paths, first because the Dev can use culling ect ps2 the emulator says that RECV does 15k per frame, Dreamcast emulator 32k per frame, this in 100% equal scenes so these numbers don't mean anything. You see, the user above believed that the Dreamcast could handle a Virtua fighter 4 port due to the polygonal count of Dead or Alive but now he found that in Fighting Viper the count didn't increase, that is, each game is individual, each one has its technology . a developer can use the technical and artistic combination to make a game beautiful. ND in Crash 1 said they were able to make visuals within the 3,000 polygons per frame limit that would require 5,000 they used an artistic path to get around a technical limit.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 07-03-2021 at 01:27 AM.

  10. #3355
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Ghost Hunter has an amazing look, few games in that generation have reached its graphic quality.

    yes, but that's not exactly what I meant. The user Yharnamresident spent a good part of the time and the thread itself, only to realize that only with the Performance Analyzer we can actually know the true technical details. these measures per emulator that we see throughout the topic mean absolutely nothing and can still guide us by wrong paths, first because the Dev can use culling ect ps2 the emulator says that RECV does 15k per frame, Dreamcast emulator 32k per frame, this in 100% equal scenes so these numbers don't mean anything. You see, the user above believed that the Dreamcast could handle a Virtua fighter 4 port due to the polygonal count of Dead or Alive but now he found that in Fighting Viper the count didn't increase, that is, each game is individual, each one has its technology . a developer can use the technical and artistic combination to make a game beautiful. ND in Crash 1 said they were able to make visuals within the 3,000 polygons per frame limit that would require 5,000 they used an artistic path to get around a technical limit.
    It all depends on what effects are used and the quality of the textures and lighting I guess. I don't really care how many polygons they're using D2 and CV looked stunning on the DC and set a high early standard for facial expressions and animation.I've always liked how VF3 TB looked on the DC too.

    Ghost Hunter is hurt by jaggies and low res, but the effects in the game are incredible
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 07-03-2021 at 05:26 AM.
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  11. #3356
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Ghost Hunter has an amazing look, few games in that generation have reached its graphic quality.

    yes, but that's not exactly what I meant. The user Yharnamresident spent a good part of the time and the thread itself, only to realize that only with the Performance Analyzer we can actually know the true technical details. these measures per emulator that we see throughout the topic mean absolutely nothing and can still guide us by wrong paths, first because the Dev can use culling ect ps2 the emulator says that RECV does 15k per frame, Dreamcast emulator 32k per frame, this in 100% equal scenes so these numbers don't mean anything. You see, the user above believed that the Dreamcast could handle a Virtua fighter 4 port due to the polygonal count of Dead or Alive but now he found that in Fighting Viper the count didn't increase, that is, each game is individual, each one has its technology . a developer can use the technical and artistic combination to make a game beautiful. ND in Crash 1 said they were able to make visuals within the 3,000 polygons per frame limit that would require 5,000 they used an artistic path to get around a technical limit.

    Ehh that's not what I said. I didn't say I had no faith in the Dreamcast, I had no faith in AM2 being able to make it. Doa 2 is good indicator with a slight more reduction vf4 can be made.

    Go read read the ps2 report using the performance analyzer from 2003(DC would have been 5 yrs on the market) called how far we got. Games from that time were running 2 to 5 million polygons per second. Average 50k polygons per frame. 60% of ps2 ran lower than 30fps. 50k per frame is Dreamcast reach at 30fps, something that I've been pointing for a while. You like to make your own narrative but even Sony disproves your bullshit.

  12. #3357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Ghost Hunter is hurt by jaggies and low res, but the effects in the game are incredible
    No, it's not. on the contrary it is one of the most advanced games, it has a clean IQ at 480 lines in progressive scan. TA, don't you see jaggies in Dreamcast games ? I see, metropolis street racing, super runabout, shenmue 2 and Headhunter. I also see many games where the ps2 version is sharper, hi res and with better textures. Evil twin is just one of them.

    https://youtu.be/n1JkC_7cEdY?t=26

    I believe that, in relation to Dreamcast and PS2 we need to get out of this total manicheism where everything on the Dreamcast is sharper, hi res and everything on the ps2 is greenish low res full shimmering. We have to go deeper, know the strengths and weaknesses but also know that nothing in relation to these same points is absolut, that's why I like this type of thread.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 07-04-2021 at 10:59 PM.

  13. #3358
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    No, it's not. on the contrary it is one of the most advanced games, it has a clean IQ at 480 lines in progressive scan. TA, don't you see jaggies in Dreamcast games ? I see, metropolis street racing, super runabout, shenmue 2 and Headhunter. I also see many games where the ps2 version is sharper, hi res and with better textures. Evil twin is just one of them.
    It runs in low res mode and features Jaggies as you saw in many PS2 games, compare the edges of mountains and buildings in Ghost, to Shenmue 2 for example. Silent Hill 2 on the other hand didn't have any such issues

    I also see many games where the ps2 version is sharper, hi res and with better textures. Evil twin is just one of them.
    When I played Head Hunter, Space Channel 5 Part 2, Maken X, Dead or Alive 2, Ecco, Alone in the Dark IV, Crazy Taxi, Rayman 2 on the DC I thought they all looked cleaner and better even before one needed to pull out the VGA box. I just felt like the N64, the PS2 output to the screen wasn't that great.
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