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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So I did some IGN research before bed.

    https://ca.ign.com/articles/2001/10/31/soul-reaver-2-3



    300 polygons, this is what I found to be the case:









    Cloofoofoo I hear you talking a lot about Spiderman, Treyarch, and polygons per stage so this may be of interest to you:

    https://ca.ign.com/articles/2001/11/...-man-the-movie
    I have never checked the ps1 version of the model but they were wrong on their dc model count, they claimed it was 800 tris. Looking at the model directly its actually 1222 tris(even with their numbers your 3,000 tris raziel is extremly bloated and incorrect). Its like his soul reaver 2 model, sometimes they claimed he was 3000 othertimes 2500. I guess they like ro guestimate rather than tell you straight. If i were you i wouldnt take their word for it, get the ps1 game, get the tools and go find what his exact count from the asset file. Thats just what i would do.

    Thats interesting on spiderman ps2. Spider man on the dreamcast uses the same engine as tony hawk. Spiderman dc is usually 2500 tris along with stages that range from 10,000 tris to 15,000 tris. Considering fhis is an enhanced ps1 port they probably could have done spiderman ps2 on dc i guess. Also I dont know if you read their post game interviews on how they made tony hawks. Basically freom what I understand the engine dont even use the floating point unit on the dreamcast. screams lazy.

    Btw interesting note treyarch made a brand new engine with draconus cult of the wyrm for the dreamcast. They further refined the engine and used it to take max steel also on dc. When they moved to ps2 they used it again for their spiderman games. If you look it up you will see its true. Its even listed some ex employees resume lol.

    EDit: seems i did check out soul reaver ps1 before. Raziel model is 640 tris straight from disc files. Most likely they are doing backface culling in your shot.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 04-05-2020 at 02:26 PM.

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    Next up is seventh cross evolution for the dreamcast ,released 1998. One of the earlier games. Despite that the models push alot of polygons though texture detail isnt good. Since the game is about assembling your body using dna i had to pick one to represent the player.These are all disc assets. There were plenty that were super high in polygon count but I chose the one they used on most press shots/magazine ads. Again for 1998 its a pretty huge leap. Considering kratos from god of war ghost of sparta on psp is 5,000 tris(says the dev anyway) the main character polygon count is surprising for this game.

    Seventh Cross Evoluion -dreamcast

    Main character level 26 body - 4,504 tris


    Land were you first start - 7,693 tris


    The open ocean - 15,089 tris


    Hermit crab boss - 4,208 tris


    Final boss - 3,904 tris


    Regular enemy lizard - 1,231 tris
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 04-05-2020 at 05:18 PM.

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    Next is konami's air force delta for dreamcast. The game uses very low poly models and very highres textures for the land. The land textures are a massive 512x512 resolution. The land models are broken up into pieces/ square sectors. It ranges from 50 tris to 500 tris per piece. There seems to be no lods for the land patches or the planes. Planes range from 900 tris to 1700 tris.

    This seems to be inline with what taito said of their ps2 flight sim "energy airforce".Taito mentioned in that game they made air planes no more than 2,000 triangles and had lods for farther view distances of the plane. The ground was also divided by patches but in their case had lods for lower polygon counts in far away patches, they didnt say how much though. For textures the 4mb vram was the real limit and they had to keep color depth low, as low as 16 colors(4bit) with some 256 colors(8bit) for plane textures . For the ground they used real life pictures but had to reduce it all to 16 colors(4bit color) texture because of vram. On the dc they seem to usually be 512x512 16 bit color. I was actually surprised how hi rez the texture was for this game because it always seemed grainy to me, I am guessing its like a ps2 game and uses no mip map or bilinear filter maybe because konami was insane enough to program it not to use vga.

    AirForce Deta - dreamcast

    F14 tomcat - 1,384 tris


    yf-23 - 1,369 tris


    land patch - 512 tris


    Land texture


    land texture 2
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 04-05-2020 at 09:04 PM.

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    Last one for now. Revisiting Seven Mansions for the dreamcast by Koei. Strange co-op resident evil style game. Stranger in that the character models have far more polygons than the surroundings.Regular enemies range from 1,700 tris to close to 3000 tris. Textures are messed up for some reason.

    Seven Mansions : Ghastly Smile - Dreamcast

    rock monster - 3,495 tris


    final boss - 3,233 tris


    Boss - 3,511 tris


    Regular enemy - 1,797 tris


    elevator - 1,204 tris

    hallway - 2,848 tris


    Kei - players character 1 - 3,039 tris


    Reina - player character 2 - 3,085 tris

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    BorderDown for the dreamcast from 2004. Grev creator interestingly admitted he had a grander vision for the game and about a third of background detail/effects was cut due to technical limitations.While cutscenes were scaled back due to budget. Which is crazy because some of the stages 80K polygons, who knows how much more detail he wanted. He also did not want to port to ps2 due to technical problems too as the game would have to be redesigned from scratch he claimed.He might as well just make a new game at that point so porting from naomi to dc was a no brainer.

    Border Down - Dreamcast

    Stage 1 - 83,864 tris for the whole stage


    stage 4( i think) - 23,846 tris


    Player ship - 567 tris


    stage 6 enemy - 761 tris


    stage 6 enemy2 - 492 tris


    stage 1 boss - 1,406 tris


    Final boss - 8,102 tris

  6. #2946
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    I finished my texture research and soon I will post, I selected 4 consoles; xbox, dreamcast, ps2 and gamecube.
    5 native games from each console, so we can know how the textures fluctuated during the gen, then I separated native games from ps2 to compare with the native textures of the other consoles.

    this methodology rules out ports, shenmue 2, skies of arcadia and dead or alive 2 counts as being native dreamcast games, so I will not compare the dreamcast skies of Arcadia textures with the GCN version but with a similar game that was designed natively for the hardware.

    another point of the methodology is that it does not observe release dates of games only hardware specs, the ps2 has 4mb of vram so technically it would never be able to match a console with twice the vram. regardless of the year the games were released.

    from what I observed it was clear that the xbox is in another league so if a game is grayish this is due to artistic issues and not for reasons of limitation. with that in mind we can distinguish what is limitation from what is artistic choice.

  7. #2947
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    textures evolution on sixth generation of console


    dreamcast




    gamecube




    xbox





    unfortunately it was a lot of games that would be very useful for my post but I will only use these.

    as you can see, i didnít put the playstation 2, in the next post i will put ps2 games to challenge each of these games, so it will be simpler to see how the ps2 textures fluctuated during the generation.

  8. #2948
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets Leynos's Avatar
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    A bunch of those pics is different resolutions. Some pics have Star Fox Adventures stretched out and blurry. It's 4:3 and it's not a blurry game by any means. Same with SA2 and others. You snagged them off google images dude.

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  9. #2949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    A bunch of those pics is different resolutions. Some pics have Star Fox Adventures stretched out and blurry. It's 4:3 and it's not a blurry game by any means. Same with SA2 and others. You snagged them off google images dude.
    all are in 480p I just resized, the purpose is to show the textures for that you don't need to maintain 100% fidelity.

    star fox adventure is 16:9 and look as it is on the pic, unfortunately gamecube doesn't generate a sharp look in any game due to anti aliasing, low amount of video memory. metroid prime 2: echoes looks good as well.

    sonic adventure 2 is the gamecube version and operates on 4:3 stretched to 16:9 for better detail.

    all images are captured from videos that are captured from the original consoles, 480p doesn't do magic, especially in 2020 where we have much higher resolutions and led display.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 04-08-2020 at 11:37 PM.

  10. #2950
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    all are in 480p I just resized, the purpose is to show the textures for that you don't need to maintain 100% fidelity.

    star fox adventure is 16:9 and look as it is on the pic, unfortunately gamecube doesn't generate a sharp look in any game due to anti aliasing, low amount of video memory. metroid prime 2: echoes looks good as well.

    sonic adventure 2 is the gamecube version and operates on 4:3 stretched to 16:9 for better detail.

    all images are captured from videos that are captured from the original consoles, 480p doesn't do magic, especially in 2020 where we have much higher resolutions and led display.
    Yeeaahhh I don't think so. Whatever you think you 'scaled' for correction or whatever for the SFA pics.. that ain't it chief. Not only did I play that game on a 57" widescreen with component back in the day and it was very crisp, but I can tell you those screen shots have some other blurring going on too (the HUD shouldn't be blurry smh). Try again with better source.

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    Can anyone check the polycount for Ridge Racer V cars? I remember them looking much better than what Dreamcast racing games offered..
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  12. #2952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post


    Cloofoofoo I hear you talking a lot about Spiderman, Treyarch, and polygons per stage so this may be of interest to you:

    https://ca.ign.com/articles/2001/11/...-man-the-movie
    Here is further evidence of what I was talking about from treyarch themselves. Hard to believe it but max steel on the dreamcast is the prior iteration of the same engine that powered spiderman 2002. Then again is you look atthe screen shots for both games properly you will alot of similarities. They probably evne shared art crew, you can see it on max steels city stages.

    3. Engine reuse.

    The first decision we had to make was what engine to use. (Writing one completely from scratch was out of the question for an 18-month project, a lesson we learned the hard way with Draconus.) We had access to the previous Spider-Man PSX engine through Activision, but our designers and programmers were used to the engine we used for Max Steel and Draconus, an engine that was already next-generation and cross-platform. Our engine had a powerful scripting language, but it also had slow turnaround times and was never intended for a Spider-Man game.

    Despite its shortcomings we felt that this engine was the one to use, and it turned out we were right: we were able to get Spidey swinging through Manhattan on the PC in record time. Now all we had to do was port it to three platforms and add as many features as we could.

  13. #2953
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Cloofoofoo I gotta tell you something important. So I'm just posting this.. to get your attention.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid87 View Post
    Can anyone check the polycount for Ridge Racer V cars? I remember them looking much better than what Dreamcast racing games offered..
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    Cloofoofoo I remember you were saying its hard to get polycounts out of the Soul Reaver 2 Jampack. I have the solution.


    First, start the game with PCSX2 0.9.8 with D3D9hardware.



    Now watch this Cool Boarders video. I mean it, you have to watch this or the emulator will freeze when you try to go to Soul Reaver 2.



    Once you seen this screen when Soul Reaver 2 is loaded, hotswap the GPU plugin to D3D9software. Meaning while the game is still running, go to the GPU plugins and switch it. PCSX2 will say it will try to savestate, and you click ok.








    An empty room with essentially nothing in sight. 150,000 PPS



    This game uses a ton of clipping, it says 1500 polygons for Razeal but its likely much more than that.




    Complex level geometry. Not a single enemy on screen and still hitting 850,000 PPS



    If anyone is wondering, Soul Reaver 2 is a cancelled Dreamcast game and this Jampack demo is when the game was still the same as the Dreamcast version.
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    One more post tonight since I gotta raise my consistency.

    Heres Nascar 2001. I'm not sure what the situation was with this game. EA is usually known for graphically impressive games with huge budgets, but this game is only somewhat impressive. I was expecting it to be 800,000 PPS but we're looking at 400,000 PPS. This game has polycounts like a early 1999 Dreamcast game.



    Typical scene.



    Another typical scene.



    Unimpressive textures.



    This game has weak shadows like a lot of Dreamcast games.




    One rival car on screen. 250,000 PPS



    Player car is 1200 polygons. So drastically lower than other Dreamcast/PS2 racing games at the time.



    I did try to see if the polycounts are right and everything seems normal.




    Lots of rival cars on-screen. 500,000 PPS



    Different player car is same 1200 polygons.



    Rival car is 800 polygons. The polygon difference is likely because its missing a environment map.




    Another scene with lots of rival cars on-screen. 450,000 PPS



    Rival car is 900 polygons. You can't get a LOD any higher than this.



    Low LOD rival is 500 polygons.


    Now this game does have insanely good particle effects which they advertised a lot. I will make a full post for this game soon. The graphics aren't absolutely horrible but they just barely got the job done.
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