PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

[Cloofoofoo]

Here we go. Remember everything like enemies , characters and the whole map is being rendered along with the extra filters he put on( dof , bloom) just zoomed way out. So shining force exa ps2 . 101k triangles per frame@ 60 fps. Without forcing it like this the game coasts about 25k to 50k per frame. With peaks around 90k per frame.

[EPSYLON EAGLE]

No love for OG XBOX games here? Rally Sport, Amped, Ninja Gaiden Black, Splinter Cell, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Star Wars KotOR, Half Life 2, would be very interesting polycounts?

[Yharnamresident]

I think your over blowing honestly. It's a good looking game but it's really not the best. Especially compared to late geb PS2 stuff. Even mediocre games like battle gear 3 on PS2 we're approaching this polygon count( if not match it) but with even more effects like environment maps pavement, bloom, radial blur, heat haze, depth of field , real time reflections ( on even rival cars) .

On another note, an acquaintance showed me a screen shot he took of one of the 3d shining force games of the PS2 in debug mode with stat printing on. Interesting enough he said judging by the font, dev and how the games behave it's most likely an updated version of the record of loss war dc game. Stat wise he zoomed out the entire map and he totaled about 101,000 triangles per frame with 200,000 vertices per frame @ 60 fps. With extra filters on. Seems ps2 never slowed down. I'll post the screenshot later. Like I said your definitely over blowing this game up.

But you've said you've barely played it, isn't that the case?

[Yharnamresident]

No love for OG XBOX games here? Rally Sport, Amped, Ninja Gaiden Black, Splinter Cell, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Star Wars KotOR, Half Life 2, would be very interesting polycounts?

Xbox emulation has always been very far behind Dreamcast/PS2/GameCube emulation. We're not gonna be able to use DirectX9 plugins to see polycounts. Xbox emulation didn't exist when DirectX9 was being used by games.

[Cloofoofoo]

But you've said you've barely played it, isn't that the case?

Such a vague question... What games f zero gx? I did half races with all cars turned on at around 7 tracks. I tested thoroughly to say the least. Your results are pretty much spot on. What don't agree on that's it's a game that turns a generation on its head. It's decent example the good GC can do but let's no pretend there wasn't gc games actually outpacing it doing 100k triangle per frame with some other effects on screen at the time of it's release. This holds true for rival system like the ps2. Heck even multiplatform games like the gc version of burnout we're cruising at 80k Tris per frame.

Or if you're talking as about shinning force PS2, I did play it, the regular way with debug on , on a real ps2. That's how I got my figures of 25k to 50k per frame and peaks of 90k per frame. The difference my pal went to a really late level and zoom out. Found out the game can render the entire map at once and not flinch. Leading to the 100k per frame figure. He also most likely you can still go higher, just a matter of finding a better stage. PS2 is a beast. No denying that. All this with lighting and heavy post processing going on with skeletal meshes( cars are easier to render).

[Yharnamresident]

Such a vague question... What games f zero gx? I did half races with all cars turned on at around 7 tracks. I tested thoroughly to say the least. Your results are pretty much spot on. What don't agree on that's it's a game that turns a generation on its head. It's decent example the good GC can do but let's no pretend there wasn't gc games actually outpacing it doing 100k triangle per frame with some other effects on screen at the time of it's release. This holds true for rival system like the ps2. Heck even multiplatform games like the gc version of burnout we're cruising at 80k Tris per frame.

Or if you're talking as about shinning force PS2, I did play it, the regular way with debug on , on a real ps2. That's how I got my figures of 25k to 50k per frame and peaks of 90k per frame. The difference my pal went to a really late level and zoom out. Found out the game can render the entire map at once and not flinch. Leading to the 100k per frame figure. He also most likely you can still go higher, just a matter of finding a better stage. PS2 is a beast. No denying that. All this with lighting and heavy post processing going on with skeletal meshes( cars are easier to render).

I didn't say the polycounts are amazing, its got average polycounts for a GameCube game. However the complete package makes it the most impressive GameCube racing game. It makes sense, it was a huge AAA 2nd party(not 1st party) game.

Its fine if you don't think its the most impressive GameCube racing game but post a game that you think looks better.

[Leynos]

Sorry to be an ass but there is a Gamecube vs PS2 topic https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...raphics/page31

[Loggo]

Well, there are also what I'd call AAA Third Party games and AAA Third Party Exclusives. Those are just as important and those would be things like the Resident Evil games on Gamecube, the Square Enix RPGs on PS2, Metal Gear Solid on PS2 and Xbox, Ninja Gaiden and DoA 3 on Xbox, etc. Those games are just as important and in many cases I'd see the Dreamcast struggling with some of them.

Ninja Gaiden was originally a Dreamcast game. While it (obviously) wouldn’t have looked as good as what we got on XBOX, it’s a big shame it was canceled once SEGA pulled the plug.

DC could have definitely used a few more "high-end" / "hardware showcase games" in its library, especially when made by developers like Team Ninja. If anyone was ever going to exploit the hardware’s more "advanced" features, it was studios like Team Ninja back when Itagaki was at the helm. I think the Demul author once described Dead or Alive 2 as "probably the most optimized DC game out there" and that was a 1999 release. You just can’t help but wonder what Itagaki’s team would have accomplished in a N-th generation DC game.

Refraction:

Radial blur( some inversion, additive blend brightness)

Depth of field

There’s also a heat haze effect in Maken X.


Although, yes, I suspect that something like this would have been tricky to do on DC during gameplay. Not impossible, but tricky.

[Cloofoofoo]

I didn't say the polycounts are amazing, its got average polycounts for a GameCube game. However the complete package makes it the most impressive GameCube racing game. It makes sense, it was a huge AAA 2nd party(not 1st party) game.

Its fine if you don't think its the most impressive GameCube racing game but post a game that you think looks better.

I didn't say polygon count is average. It's actually high . Average is when some games run at a steady 30k to 40k( and a lot do!). I am just saying there's other games that push as hard if not harder. Maybe I will post more when I have more time.

[Cloofoofoo]

Ninja Gaiden was originally a Dreamcast game. While it (obviously) wouldn’t have looked as good as what we got on XBOX, it’s a big shame it was canceled once SEGA pulled the plug.

DC could have definitely used a few more "high-end" / "hardware showcase games" in its library, especially when made by developers like Team Ninja. If anyone was ever going to exploit the hardware’s more "advanced" features, it was studios like Team Ninja back when Itagaki was at the helm. I think the Demul author once described Dead or Alive 2 as "probably the most optimized DC game out there" and that was a 1999 release. You just can’t help but wonder what Itagaki’s team would have accomplished in a N-th generation DC game.


There’s also a heat haze effect in Maken X.


Although, yes, I suspect that something like this would have been tricky to do on DC during gameplay. Not impossible, but tricky.

Yeah it was being prototyped on Naomi specifically to be moved to DC later. Shame it didn't happen. Right up there with zone of the enders dc.

Its not tricky,:as a matter of fact code Veronica used it for gameplay . It's just as I have been saying , it doesn't have to match what other systems do, it just has to do it's owned town down version. Which in the code Veronica version is completely opaque by rendering the scene to a texture on a wavy quad instead of to the main screen( the way it worked in maken x and other consoles similar but they overlay the wavy quad on the scene and blend ). As time went by you've probably would have seen more of these effects worked in , and tailored specifically for DC way.

[stu]

Sorry to be an ass but there is a Gamecube vs PS2 topic https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...raphics/page31

I hope this was a joke post. If not here's a newsflash for you. This thread hasn't just been about Dreamcast Vs PS2 in about 7 years and around 175 pages ago. Also before you were even a member here. If you care about this thread staying "on topic" then beg a mod to dump it back in to Insert Coin and merge it with the other thread you mention. They can call it the The Epic 6th Generation Deathmatch - Dreamcast vs PS vs Gamecube and what the hell add Xbox too!

[SegaAMD]

Xbox emulation has always been very far behind Dreamcast/PS2/GameCube emulation. We're not gonna be able to use DirectX9 plugins to see polycounts. Xbox emulation didn't exist when DirectX9 was being used by games.

there is a way to know. The other user captured the numbers of RE4 in the PC version, so it is possible to do it with all xbox games that also have a pc version like Doom 3 and Half Life 2 or even Far Cry but we must be careful to set them to medium or low settings because the xbox didn't run everything in ultra, believe me the PCs in 1998, 1999 were already above the ps2, there is a game that was quoted to be released on the Dreamcast which I doubt it would be possible Heavy Metal Fakk² if it is possible I would like to know the its polycount.

[SegaAMD]

Geez, its gonna be a dramatic difference going from F-Zero GX to that very average F1 game.

it's a ps2 launch game it will certainly be inferior to F Zero but honestly the game has some good effects besides being an excellent cross generation example
mostly because it scales from top to bottom: PC- 6th gen consoles- 5th gen consoles.

Another way to measure the power of the xbox is to measure Tomb Raider, V-Rally 3, Dark Alliance, Dakar 2 and True crimes 2 on Dolphin, the xbox has twice the frame rate therefore twice the polycounts. Hunter The reckoning GC ~40fps xbox 60fps etc

[Yharnamresident]

there is a way to know. The other user captured the numbers of RE4 in the PC version, so it is possible to do it with all xbox games that also have a pc version like Doom 3 and Half Life 2 or even Far Cry but we must be careful to set them to medium or low settings because the xbox didn't run everything in ultra, believe me the PCs in 1998, 1999 were already above the ps2, there is a game that was quoted to be released on the Dreamcast which I doubt it would be possible Heavy Metal Fakk² if it is possible I would like to know the its polycount.

It won't be accurate, the hardware is different and also the ports are.

it's a ps2 launch game it will certainly be inferior to F Zero but honestly the game has some good effects besides being an excellent cross generation example
mostly because it scales from top to bottom: PC- 6th gen consoles- 5th gen consoles.

Another way to measure the power of the xbox is to measure Tomb Raider, V-Rally 3, Dark Alliance, Dakar 2 and True crimes 2 on Dolphin, the xbox has twice the frame rate therefore twice the polycounts. Hunter The reckoning GC ~40fps xbox 60fps etc

It wasn't a f#@king launch game I already told you that. Theres no PS2 F1 launch games.

[Yharnamresident]

Sorry to be an ass but there is a Gamecube vs PS2 topic https://www.sega-16.com/forum/showth...raphics/page31

Cloofoofoo only posts in this thread. I'm serious. He doesn't post anywhere else.