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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    For my next game, this is one that SegaAMD claimed it hit 4 million PPS, I decided to verify if that was the case.
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    ESPN International Track & Field (PS2, 2000)


    This was a very early PS2 game released by Konami in August 2000. Like a lot of early PS2 games, its essentially doing nothing that the Dreamcast couldn't handle. But of course this doesn't mean it isn't graphically impressive, and I wish more people in the game industry knew this was the case with PS2 games that essentially don't go beyond the Dreamcast's capabilities.




    High-poly players with fancy shading.



    The players look good and the textures are high-res enough. Although we can see a minor graphical flaw with the shimmering/banding in the track lines.



    Every part of this game looks fairly good.



    Pretty faint motion-blur. But this is when Konami was trying to learn PS2 development.



    The textures definitely are good enough.



    And of course, since its a early PS2 game then that means theres interlacing artifacts.



    The motion-blur appears better here.



    The second-screen is the frame-buffer used as a texture. This is one aspect where the Dreamcast would have a hard time doing this at 60 FPS.



    Lots of particle effects and transparency.



    I can imagine people where amazed at all the fully-modeled features of this character.

    So this game is graphically pretty good with no major flaws, and only a couple minor flaws.


    In terms of polygons, as you could assume its not doing anything higher than the Dreamcast. This game only runs at about 2500 more polygons than Virtua Athlete 2000. But we can see by the graphics that these polycounts were good enough for a game released in mid-2000.

    Average: 1.2 million to 2.1 million polygons per second





    With all the players on-screen and some other characters, this is the highest the game will go. 2.1 million PPS



    One player is 3000 polygons.



    Another player is 3000 polygons.



    These players are all 3000 polygons.




    All players on-screen but no crowds. 1.85 million PPS



    Players are same 3000 polygons.




    Pole vault. 1 million PPS



    Player and pole are 8500 polygons.



    Player is 8000 polygons. Of course they give this player a huge polygonal increase.




    Javelin throw. 1.35 million PPS



    Player and pole are 8500 polygons.
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    ESPN International Track & Field (PS2, 2000) (Continued)





    Long jump. 1.2 million PPS



    Player is 8000 polygons.




    100m freestyle. 1.8 million PPS



    Player is 1500 polygons.



    Another player is 1500 polygons.




    At a cut-scene. 2.15 million PPS



    Cut-scene players are 3000 polygons.




    Horizontal bar. 1.55 million PPS



    Player is 7000 polygons.



    Assistant is 5000 polygons.




    Trap shooting cut-scene. 800,000 PPS



    Player and gun are 9500 polygons.



    Player is 8500 polygons.



    Gun is 1000 polygons.




    The actual trap shooting is a very low amount of polygons. 150,000 PPS



    Disc is 150 polygons.




    Rhythmic gymnastics. 850,000 PPS



    Player and ribbon are 7500 polygons.
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    it is a beautiful game i am impressed that it has a peak of 2.1M it is much less than my information had suggested

    whether Dreamcast would be able to play the game? there is no need to speculate as the game has a version for Dreamcast imo it is that way because it was what was possible to be done

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    Good analysis. Shame Konami didn't put more effort on the DC version. Sydney 2000 shows what was possible detail wise per frame and even Virtua athlete.

    This reminds of konamis nba2night Dreamcast vs ps2. The ps2 version looks way way better and was developed internally by konamis Japan team. The Dreamcast version was given to a western no name developer and ended up being horrible. Interestingly enough nba2night on ps2 hovers at 1.2 mpps to 1.5 mpps. Looked very similar to this game. The Dreamcast version while looking horrendous might actually sport more polygons per frame due to running 30fps if nulldc is used as a indicator (indicator only due to inaccuracy)

    Also I think your confusing depth of field for motion blue. The game uses both alot. Considering it's an early game they had both down.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 06-11-2020 at 01:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it is a beautiful game i am impressed that it has a peak of 2.1M it is much less than my information had suggested

    whether Dreamcast would be able to play the game? there is no need to speculate as the game has a version for Dreamcast imo it is that way because it was what was possible to be done
    Your argument falls apart in the fact that some events on the Dreamcast version literally have no more than 3k to 4k per frame ( not using nulldc I got these figures, I extracted the models off the disc) leading to some events having ps1 like pps counts of 200k to 300k pps. That's not the best they could achieve and you know it. It's real lack effort. Especially with Virtua athlete doing twice the detail and Sydney 2000 doing more per frame than the ps2 version of track and field.

    I know you're just trolling but come on. I wonder where u got that 4mpps figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Your argument falls apart in the fact that some events on the Dreamcast version literally have no more than 3k to 4k per frame ( not using nulldc I got these figures, I extracted the models off the disc) leading to some events having ps1 like pps counts of 200k to 300k pps. That's not the best they could achieve and you know it. It's real lack effort. Especially with Virtua athlete doing twice the detail and Sydney 2000 doing more per frame than the ps2 version of track and field.

    I know you're just trolling but come on. I wonder where u got that 4mpps figure.
    I'm sorry, but I 've owned all those games and I'm not going to go on about Polygon count. But ESPN looks miles better than VA or Sydney and I'm talking night and day differences (bar the PS2 horrible jaggies)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I'm sorry, but I 've owned all those games and I'm not going to go on about Polygon count. But ESPN looks miles better than VA or Sydney and I'm talking night and day differences (bar the PS2 horrible jaggies)
    The whole point is to compare what was done on a technical level. ESPN track and field on the DC runs a third of what Sydney 2000. Sydney is on par and in some cases seems to push more than the ps2 version per frame.

    Art style horrible? Yes but they achieved far more than Konami even tried. It's dumb to like hey I think it's ugly so IAM not gonna consider it.

    Edit: heres comparison on nulldc. Now I dont think nulldc is accurate as it inflates polygon count but it still a good indicator of detail when compared between games. I compared same vents in both games and made sure it was the one of the highest captures i could get for both games.

    Espn track and field dreamcast - 650,000 pps / 60 fps = 10,833 tris per frame


    Sydney 2000 - 1,500,000 pps / 30 fps = 50,000 tris per frame
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 06-11-2020 at 11:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I wonder where u got that 4mpps figure.
    this comes from an old conversation in the cycles of friendship since the game had a lot of details, so there was this idea that it surpassed the limits of the dreamcast, it was a no base hunch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    The whole point is to compare what was done on a technical level. ESPN track and field on the DC runs a third of what Sydney 2000. Sydney is on par and in some cases seems to push more than the ps2 version per frame.

    Art style horrible? Yes but they achieved far more than Konami even tried. It's dumb to like hey I think it's ugly so IAM not gonna consider it
    I can understand that. But ESPN looks better and runs better and there is a big difference in how both games look. I really don't enjoy praising the PS2 either LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I can understand that. But ESPN looks better and runs better and there is a big difference in how both games look. I really don't enjoy praising the PS2 either LOL
    You say you understand but your point makes no sense . I edited my post with pictures above to show the stark differences. espn doesnt run better if its barely running on the same level. as shitty as sydney is it just craps all over it. i wasnt refering to ps2 version but the dc version. the ps2 version is overall better but sydney 2000 isnt that far behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    You say you understand but your point makes no sense . I edited my post with pictures above to show the stark differences. espn doesnt run better if its barely running on the same level. as shitty as sydney is it just craps all over it. i wasnt refering to ps2 version but the dc version. the ps2 version is overall better but sydney 2000 isnt that far behind.
    ESPN looks much better on screen. Do you agree or not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    ESPN looks much better on screen. Do you agree or not?
    The ps2 version yes, dreamcast version a super solid extreme NO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    The ps2 version yes, dreamcast version a super solid extreme NO.
    Good comeback, but not quite what I asked. To me when I played Sydney it felt slow and sluggish and didn't look great. ESPN was much better and for 'me' was one of the 1st games to show off the power of the PS2
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it is a beautiful game i am impressed that it has a peak of 2.1M it is much less than my information had suggested

    whether Dreamcast would be able to play the game? there is no need to speculate as the game has a version for Dreamcast imo it is that way because it was what was possible to be done
    Like Cloofoofoo has said, I don't know why we bother to entertain you. But I might as well.

    Don't bother comparing it to the Dreamcast version. The PS2 version was built from the ground up, the Dreamcast version was a port of the N64 version with some next-gen enhancements. Which version sounds like it has more effort put into it?

    Let me show you.



    It still has tons of N64 remnants. These crowds might have looked fine on the N64, but blown-up on the Dreamcast in 480p they look absolutely horrible.



    In the 100m dash, they made the players low-poly so the game doesn't go past 1 million PPS. Doesn't sound very ambitious right?



    Though at least they decided to put in some motion-blur.



    Look at that ceiling, more N64 remnants.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Good analysis. Shame Konami didn't put more effort on the DC version. Sydney 2000 shows what was possible detail wise per frame and even Virtua athlete.

    This reminds of konamis nba2night Dreamcast vs ps2. The ps2 version looks way way better and was developed internally by konamis Japan team. The Dreamcast version was given to a western no name developer and ended up being horrible. Interestingly enough nba2night on ps2 hovers at 1.2 mpps to 1.5 mpps. Looked very similar to this game. The Dreamcast version while looking horrendous might actually sport more polygons per frame due to running 30fps if nulldc is used as a indicator (indicator only due to inaccuracy)
    It seems developers kept doing that. It must've been hard to do multiplats for PS2/Dreamcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Also I think your confusing depth of field for motion blue. The game uses both alot. Considering it's an early game they had both down.
    I did notice some depth of field but it didn't appear that well in screenshots.


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I'm sorry, but I 've owned all those games and I'm not going to go on about Polygon count. But ESPN looks miles better than VA or Sydney and I'm talking night and day differences (bar the PS2 horrible jaggies)
    PS2 ESPN looks the best, however night and day differences is impossible. Virtua Athlete 2000 has better textures and runs at about the same polycounts.


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