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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    in fact, the Dreamcast architecture is very different from the GCN architecture which in turn is very different from the ps2 architecture, but if we look at it we will see that the GCN is closer to the ps2 in architecture than the Dreamcast, the latter doesn't even have programmable pipeline.

    other features that bring GCN closer to ps2 is the use of small video memory as a cache ect ect
    No console has similar architecture to the PS2, even the PS3. The GameCube and Dreamcast are both very well-balanced consoles with CPU/GPU/RAM architectures.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Dreamcast has no power to deal with this game at any time and you compare it to a 1998 dreamcast game

    because there’s no ram or processor or storage for that, even on ps2 the loadings are high
    Ok this confirms it, SegaAMD isn't being real with us. Hes just posting bait posts so we all react to them. I encourage everyone to start ignoring these posts of his.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    The GameCube and Dreamcast are both very well-balanced consoles with CPU/GPU/RAM architectures.
    .
    you definitely don't know about this subject, Dreamcast doesn't even have a programmable pipeline, weak cpu and only 1GB, GCN uses multiple memory buses, one of them with only 81mb / sec, for more than a third of the memory, too slow. there is no way for a system to be balanced if it is full of internal bottlenecks, mainly these two, xbox would be as close to balance.

    in short, the best consoles design are the ones that win. that's the truth.

    but despite that, GCN looks more like PS2 than Dreamcast, none of them are balanced but if it were to choose one, I would choose the PS2 because it has more than 4 thousand games, that's just an opinion.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 06-23-2020 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    you definitely don't know about this subject, Dreamcast doesn't even have a programmable pipeline, weak cpu and only 1GB, GCN uses multiple memory buses, one of them with only 81mb / sec, for more than a third of the memory, too slow. there is no way for a system to be balanced if it is full of internal bottlenecks, mainly these two, xbox would be as close to balance.
    Those are all minor specs, I'm looking at the consoles from a macro level.

    Also Sonic Team is gonna be the one that agrees with me, not you.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasy_Star_Online

    The GameCube was chosen because it had similar architecture to the Dreamcast,[68] and because it supported dial-up, which Sega still believed was important despite the approach of broadband internet.[50] Sonic Team created a GameCube demo of Phantasy Star Online within a month.
    Keep in mind that was when the PS2 was already out for a year.
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    I will be posting another game today. I will give you guys a hint, "freshwater".
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    Sega Bass Fishing (Dreamcast, 1999)


    This game completely blew my expectations. As a game released in early 1999, it is a graphical masterpiece. It was a Model 3 game and Sega had a obscure team port it to the Dreamcast, they hit the ball out of the park. And it has lots of content as a single player game. This is a very good game overall, at least a 9.2/10.




    Lodge stage. You constantly notice the reflection effect while playing.



    The fish are high-poly with lots of frames of animation.



    And high-poly underwater detail.



    I caught one.



    Bridge stage. This one doesn't look as good.



    Reed stage.



    The underwater sections are indeed different for each stage.



    View of boat.



    Cape stage. The rain effect isn't the best.



    Transparency in glasses.



    Palace stage. I bet a lot of you haven't seen this stage.



    This stage has huge fish.


    In terms of polygons this game has high polycounts compared to other late 1998/early 1999 Dreamcast games, running over twice as much as Tokyo Xtreme Racer. There was even 2001 PS2 games with these polycounts. They couldn't have been any better.

    Average: 900,000 to 1.6 million polygons per second'





    Lodge stage. 1.35 million PPS. You can see the reflection effect is the cabin and deck duplicated.




    Underwater section. The game renders objects behind the fog which is what adds up to 1.95 million PPS.



    Fish is 2400 polygons.



    Lure is 1700 polygons.




    This might be the first console game ever to hit 2 million PPS. 2.15 million PPS




    A couple fishes on-screen. 1.4 million PPS



    Fish is 2400 polygons.



    Fish is 2400 polygons.
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    Sega Bass Fishing (Dreamcast, 1999) (Continued)





    Another section at 2.05 million PPS.



    Batch of sticks is 1000 polygons.




    If theres too much stuff going on in the underwater section, the game will manually drop to 30 FPS. 1 million PPS




    Raising a fish. 600,000 PPS




    Cape stage. 1.25 million PPS




    Underwater section. 1.55 million PPS



    Fish is 2400 polygons.




    Catching a fish. 1.5 million PPS



    Player character is 3100 polygons.




    Bridge stage. This stage is low-poly at 950,000 PPS.




    Reed stage. 1.2 million PPS




    Underwater section. You can see those reeds are actually made up of individual polygons. 1 million PPS



    Lure is 1400 polygons.




    Inlet stage has the highest polygons. 1.7 million PPS
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    never expected this kind of performance from Sega Bass Fishing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter View Post
    never expected this kind of performance from Sega Bass Fishing.
    The emulator has proven to be pretty inaccurate. In fact it is has been proven to double the number of polygons in some cases.

    From a couple of pages back:

    Quote: "What i found was that extracting from the emulator gave me twice the polygon count, making nulldc totally unsuitable for direct polygon counting. "

    Kinda makes the results pointless imo.

  9. #3219
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    The emulator has proven to be pretty inaccurate. In fact it is has been proven to double the number of polygons in some cases.

    From a couple of pages back:

    Quote: "What i found was that extracting from the emulator gave me twice the polygon count, making nulldc totally unsuitable for direct polygon counting. "

    Kinda makes the results pointless imo.
    I only got a couple days left, not enough time for debating this. But you can go back to my Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 comparison, the game has slightly higher polycounts on PS2 despite all the geometry being the same as the Dreamcast besides the characters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I only got a couple days left, not enough time for debating this. But you can go back to my Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 comparison, the game has slightly higher polycounts on PS2 despite all the geometry being the same as the Dreamcast besides the characters.
    It has been proven in a lot of the games that NullDC inflates the poly counts. In fact all the emulators do. Has the models from Ready2Rumble been extracted from the disc yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    The emulator has proven to be pretty inaccurate. In fact it is has been proven to double the number of polygons in some cases.

    From a couple of pages back:

    Quote: "What i found was that extracting from the emulator gave me twice the polygon count, making nulldc totally unsuitable for direct polygon counting. "

    Kinda makes the results pointless imo.
    Unfortunately it does that. Sometimes is minimal like 10% to 25% inflation on polygon count but usually it's 2x the amount and in one game it was around 3x the amount. Varies from game to game. Not sure what does that.

    I remember his model rip for Elliot from blue stinger was highly inflated. The base model is 2,500 Tris but his rip showed over 4,000tris and that's with backface culling of it(meaning non camera facing polygons were not drawn). If part of it is culled there's no way it should be over 2,500 should it.

    I no longer debate I just look at the posted result and mentally divide it half. I think nulldc is good for comparing detail from DC to DC game with that thought in mind. Just might not be useful for ps2 comparison.

  12. #3222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Sega Bass Fishing (Dreamcast, 1999) (Continued)


    [IMG]h
    [IMG]htt

    Another section at 2.05 million PPS.

    [IMG]

    Batch of sticks is 1000 polygons.

    [IMG]

    If theres too much stuff going on in the underwater section, the game will manually drop to 30 FPS. 1 million PPS

    [IMG]

    Raising a fish. 600,000 PPS

    [IMG]htt

    Cape stage. 1.25 million PPS

    [IMG]h

    Underwater section. 1.55 million PPS

    [

    Fish is 2400 polygons.

    [IMG

    Catching a fish. 1.5 million PPS

    [

    Player character is 3100 polygons.

    [

    Bridge stage. This stage is low-poly at 950,000 PPS.

    [IMG]
    [IMG]

    Reed stage. 1.2 million PPS

    [IMG]https

    Underwater section. You can see those reeds are actually made up of individual polygons. 1 million PPS

    [I

    Lure is 1400 polygons.

    [I

    Inlet stage has the highest polygons. 1.7 million PPS
    Thanks for doing this one. Believe it or not Sims weren't obscure. They were owned Sega at that time. They have left Sega and still make fishing games, I own their latest on the switch.

    This might be one of few arcade perfect (or close to)ports from model 3 to Dreamcast. You should have captured with all lures on screen, it shoots up sky high the detail.
    Sega marine fishing might be a slight downgrade but it's way more fun. Sega bass fishing 2 they upped the realism in the art style.

  13. #3223
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    It has been proven in a lot of the games that NullDC inflates the poly counts. In fact all the emulators do. Has the models from Ready2Rumble been extracted from the disc yet?
    They have not been. I usually only extract when it's a ninja chunk model because there are tools for that. That game doesn't make use of that.

    Not all emulators , seems zerogs for pcsx2 seem to mostly accurate. I remember the demul emulator author mentioned to someone else that dead or alive 2 on the DC
    25k to 30k vertex per frame. Zerogs for pcsx2 seems to show around 24k vertex/Tris per frame.

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    So my internet was cut out this morning. I can't make anymore posts. I only completed like 10% of the posts I had planned, just haven't had enough consistently this year while being busy with other tasks. I might do this again in a couple years, perhaps also create a YouTube channel named "6th gen analysis", with higher production values like video captures from real hardware. I assume Cloofoofoo will be taking over my position in this thread unless he also has plans. It was a great experience talking to you guys.
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  15. #3225
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    Ok obviously you guys haven't been busy. I will comment on a few things.

    First off, I know theres people porting Atomiswave games to Dreamcast. I don't care. The Atomiswave games were all made by Sammy which were very inexperienced developers, they all have crappier graphics than games released in 2000.

    Also I was thinking of creating a YouTube channel for this topic, but I feel this topic is way too niche market for anything besides these low-activity forum threads. Would it be best if I just came here every couple months to create a couple of my big posts?
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