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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #3301
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert zborgerd's Avatar
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    GSM is deinterlacing internally and many games don't even work at all (maybe half). Field rendered games look very bad when forced to progressive with GSM. It's not the right solution and is half-baked for something that should have been there to begin with. The line shifting for interlaced games is very evident and it doesn't change the fact that it's still 480i. GSM doesn't improve upon the video hardware that I already have and that's not even the issue. In most cases a TV's good quality deinterlacer will produce better results than GSM.

    Anamorphic wide screen / 16:9 is nonsense and produces a worse image than the native 4:3. I've stopped using it in all of my 480p/i games. You're suggesting stretching already terrible interlaced video to make it look even worse, so not you've not only halved the real vertical rendering but you're stretching the horizontal pixels as well. My TV is big enough that I don't need to fill those pillar bars and make everything else look worse. Furthermore, I didn't even mention anamorphic widescreen once and you aren't helping your argument by suggesting something that is going to make the image look worse. But if you love anamorphic widescreen, feel free to fill your TV with stretched 480i. It's all about what works for you.

    DC does not render 31 kHz games internally in 480i. Not sure where you've come up with this. At worst it line doubles 240p games and I've already given an example of an oddity like Psychic Force 2012 which isn't even 31 kHz compatible. It's way easier to convert a progressive scan signal into interlaced and way harder to fix what is missing in 480i (impossible, even). Look at the pages of PS2 screenshots here if you need evidence of how blurry and nasty it looks in motion. The pictures speak for themselves. Even emulation can't fix the PS2 in this regard. But it wouldn't be a PS2 game anymore if that's the case.

    PS2's interlaced video is travesty and it's one of the worst consoles ever when attached to a progressive scan display. It's basically one of a kind for its generation in this regard. And I don't mean that in a good way. To keep you happy I will say "progressive scan" instead of the one time I used "HDTV", seeing as you automatically equate HDTV with fake widescreen modes. PS2 is right at home on a Trinitron though. But even there the interlaced games look comparatively bad over YPbPr (I had one until it recently died).

    Deinterlacing does not work well for games, period. You cannot fix what isn't there. It's fine for menus, but that's all. But I'm tired of people trying to brush this one under the rug like it doesn't matter.

    Finally, progressive scan is not "overrated". There is a reason why we don't use interlaced video AT ALL anymore. It's not practical for archival purposes nor are we limited to the same technological restraints that made it required or commonplace in the past. I can't even believe that you would call it "overrated". I could name something that is overrated and it's not progressive scan.
    Last edited by zborgerd; 12-16-2020 at 02:07 AM.

  2. #3302
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    nice job man

    Rayman 2 is incredible, I don't think it's fair to say that it has a fifth generation polygonal count.

    the N64 version, which is very good at almost the same level as the Rare games, should do at best 30fps and 4k polygons per frame this gives 120,000 assuming the best possible scenario at 480x360i expansion pack and 700 polygons Rayman.

    the Dreamcast version is very solid running at 60fps while the ps2 runs at 30fps. It is interesting that Hoodlum Havoc runs at 60fps.
    200,000 PPS is still 5th gen range, anything between 40,000 and 300,000 PPS is 5th gen. Imagine there was a console more powerful than the N64 that could do 200,000 PPS. Whats below 40,000 PPS? Those 4th gen 3D games.
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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zborgerd View Post
    I don't think that you noticed the ghosting occurring during the deinterlacing process. See the Mobil logos on the wall where the emulator is trying to merge them to attempt to create a single frame by blending. Apples to apples 480p real world poly performance would be far lower but cannot be measured if the game doesn't have this option (there is a reason for this). In fact, this is demonstrated in a majority of your screenshots of PS2 games that feature fast motion and is indicative of the flaw that I describe above.
    I always delete the interlaced polygons at the start. The emulator separates them in the polygon dumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by zborgerd View Post
    Regarding racing games, might be good to compare both (Test Drive) Le Mans releases. Maybe you did in an older post (Edit: I see you did but didn't include the PS2 version).
    Test Drive Le Mans is one of the games that glitch out PCSX2, says the game is only running at 2000 polygons.
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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zborgerd View Post
    Me? I only claimed that the inability to put out 480p in nearly every game is a massive problem. The console is rendering half as much as the competing consoles and relying on the television to hide it. I don't understand why people don't see how this was effectively the Sony cheat code to achieving short term claims of performance in market where progressive scan displays were becoming mainstream. They sold millions of them in the Trinitrons of the time. Progressive scan was a big deal but their game system couldn't handle it. They aren't technically lying. They just aren't telling the whole story.

    To be fair, most people didn't even care and only used composite AV cables. Probably even to this day.

    But PS2 gets as much use as Dreamcast in my home. It's just disappointing to play because the games look so terrible once they are taken off of a CRT.
    Yes a very valid criticism. Imagine its 2000/2001, you spent $3000 on a Sony rear projection TV, then you find out there literally isn't a single 480p game on PS2.

    Anyways don't mind SegaAMD, the guy absolutely loves doing damage control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    200,000 PPS is still 5th gen range.
    I agree that 200k is 5th gen, I also believe that the N64 version was the original. Despite beautiful graphics, rayman 2 is not a native Dreamcast game, it is a crossgen, perhaps with a better engine to increase the polygonal count. But I trust Ubisoft's work. if they chose to go with these settings it is because they understood that the game would get better that way. The n64 can even make 4k tris per frame in rayman but in action games this is almost the limit if not the frame rate is very bad like Mace The Dark Age, we know that it is rare to find a true 30fps on N64. So the improvements offered by Dreamcast are compatible with what we expect from a crossgen game, better textures, resolution and frame rate. If Ubi chooses to make a nextgen version we would have a close count of evil twin (by the way test evil twin ubi 6th game).

  6. #3306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Yes a very valid criticism. Imagine its 2000/2001, you spent $3000 on a Sony rear projection TV, then you find out there literally isn't a single 480p game on PS2.

    Anyways don't mind SegaAMD, the guy absolutely loves doing damage control.
    If you spent $3000 on a TV in 2001 then you probably weren't using it for video games, but more likely a home movie theatre. In which case you could use it to drive your $500 DVD player that has a special deinterlace chip to output the highest quality 480p on the market.

    Or, you know, have the TV upscale it for you, as would be expected from a $3000 screen.

  7. #3307
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    If you spent $3000 on a TV in 2001 then you probably weren't using it for video games, but more likely a home movie theatre. In which case you could use it to drive your $500 DVD player that has a special deinterlace chip to output the highest quality 480p on the market.

    Or, you know, have the TV upscale it for you, as would be expected from a $3000 screen.
    I paid $800 ($1,200 for new) for an open box Sony HD CRT. Yeah, I was really disappointed with how many games on the PS2 didn't support 480p. That's why I usually bought the Xbox version of a 3rd party game back then.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  8. #3308
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert zborgerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Yes a very valid criticism. Imagine its 2000/2001, you spent $3000 on a Sony rear projection TV, then you find out there literally isn't a single 480p game on PS2.

    Anyways don't mind SegaAMD, the guy absolutely loves doing damage control.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    If you spent $3000 on a TV in 2001 then you probably weren't using it for video games, but more likely a home movie theatre. In which case you could use it to drive your $500 DVD player that has a special deinterlace chip to output the highest quality 480p on the market.

    Or, you know, have the TV upscale it for you, as would be expected from a $3000 screen.
    My friends and I played DC on the VGA box in in 1998 before it was released outside of Japan. Also played progressive scan games on rear projection shortly after (friend had one). Mostly Gamecube since we played a lot of Smash Melee back in the day but also had a PC hooked up. The rear projection TV also could handle VGA input as well as progressive scan component. We played a lot of games.

    I'm only now catching up on a lot of PS2 games due to the backlog but have been playing it on LCD now since at least 2017 when deinterlacers were really bad.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zborgerd View Post
    My friends and I played DC on the VGA box in in 1998 before it was released outside of Japan.
    I was using a DC VGA Box in April 1999 just after Get Bass shipped, ok it had to be on my old PC Dell Monitor and the SEGA VGA box was hugely expensive but It was a massive jump over CRT and when it came to screen Res the DC was better than the PS2 on a standard TV, never mind before you moved up the TV chain.
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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    I was running my DC to a 19 VGA CRT monitor. It looked great, but when I moved to a desktop LCD, it looked like arse. No I just use an S-Video cable now, connected to my 32 HD CRT.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #3311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I will do a comparison of NullDC and Makaron. Makaron is an emulator made in Poland and it doesn't use 1 line of NullDC code. Its harder to use than NullDC but some games have better compatibility.

    Cloofoofoo posts a lot of good stuff, but he has this trait where he'll suddenly get super agitated out of nowhere and its not very pleasant. So its kinda good he isn't here to see this.



    Evolution in Makaron:




    First battle scene. 700,000 PPS



    Mag is 3600 polygons.




    In town. 1.6 million PPS

    Evolution in NullDC:




    First battle scene. 1 million PPS



    Mag is 5700 polygons.




    In town. 2.4 million PPS


    Well I guess that solves it. NullDC gives too many polygons. But why don't we look at another game?

    Super Magnetic Neo in Makaron:




    Start of first course. 900,000 PPS



    Player character is 1200 polygons.

    Super Magnetic Neo in NullDC:




    Start of first course. 700,000 PPS



    Player character is 1700 polygons.


    Both seem very realistic, however isn't 1200 polygons pretty low for a player character? Cloofoofoo was constantly saying "this character has too many polygons, this car has too many polygons" yes but you should be able to identify what the culprit is. When I showed him that PCSX2 was giving too many polygons, I could easily show him the culprit which was it was giving duplicate polygons and in very rare instances there would be junk polygons. You can't just say "this character has too many polygons" and not identify why that is the case.

    And of course even though the box art for Evolution says the game runs at 60 FPS, since we gotta automatically believe what the emulator tells us then that means the game runs at 30 FPS:




    I will post another thing. Sega Worldwide Soccer 2000 has character polygon numbers listed on IGN:

    https://www.ign.com/articles/1999/11...de-soccer-2000







    Match start. 1.7 million PPS



    player is 1100 polygons. Yes thats right, NullDC gives so many polygons it can't even match what the IGN article stated!!! In all honestly you could easily tell these players aren't 2500 polygons, no where enough detail.




    In match. 1.05 million PPS



    Player is 1200 polygons.


    Honestly I'm so sick of dealing with this BS. I will go back to discussing topics that are fun to discuss. Should we Look at Mortal Kombat 5?
    Well i dont get agitated but i just try to pount out you stick carrots in your ears and ignore obvious bloatings in polygon counts when the emulators does them. You quickly forget blue stinger for example, half of the character polygons gets culled yet your extraction is 2x hogher in count than the raw model file directly from the game disc? How can i not call you out. Its simply wrong , i simply came to understand and let you be that you like to inflate your dreamcast numbers.
    I wouldn't have gone back to this but you did bring it up so ill call you out again at being very wrong. I wouldn't trust yiur numbers.

    Blue stinger wasnt the only one, i showed you multiple examples of your bloated numbers vs file directly from the disc. You even suggested the barely upgraded soul reaver 1 model was higher than the part 2 one.

  12. #3312
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    It's nice see you again

    talk about ps2 is always good

  13. #3313
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    I admire your efforts in measuring polygons but the only truth can only be achieved through the performance analyzer.


    3 points: using triggerheart they are 3M on dreamcast even 4M, the PN03 game on GCN is doing 3M they are not even the same thing ... to make matters worse the ps2 can execute the same scene with only 10k in Triggerheart, in RECV DC makes 20-30k per frame, ps2 shows the same scene with 10-17k, super mario sunshine i measured peak 180k on cube, after discovering that someone extracted the entire stage and it was composed of only 60k, RE4 pc doing 65k pc ps2 in same scene same detail only 15k. So counting is just one factor among many others. knowing these things is positive but that leaves us in a completely invisible and blind about it.

    2) the performance analyzer is the only reliable way but only the devs have access

    3) the emulator, although partly mimicking the real results, still not able to get attached to them as absolute truth, in ratchet and clank ps2 6.2 M ... in the emulator in the same scene 4.9M is made an error of more than one million in relation to the PA, if we did not know the measures of the PA 4.9 would be the accepted value.

    If the emulator is unreliable or if the consoles have different forms of rendering that circumvent the concept of measuring polygons and if that is true (and it seems that it is)

    so the way we measure polygons is worthless.

    it's also bad to go back to believing in devs, as they can be PR, like the Melbourne House guys claiming insanities like the 18M GP challenge, when in the internal benchmark EA canada only managed 8.5M of polygons on the ps2 in a game-like situation, similar to game but not equal to game. Jak operates in this range maybe 10M peak.

  14. #3314
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    If you spent $3000 on a TV in 2001 then you probably weren't using it for video games, but more likely a home movie theatre. In which case you could use it to drive your $500 DVD player that has a special deinterlace chip to output the highest quality 480p on the market.

    Or, you know, have the TV upscale it for you, as would be expected from a $3000 screen.
    You can find posts on HDTV forums from 2000 where people were using VGA-to-Component converters to play Dreamcast on RPTVs. I gotta change my underwear after thinking people had that kind of setup in 2000.

    Anyways I might be back in the spring.
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  15. #3315
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    Tearing down another myth.



    Is Test Drive Le Mans better on Dreamcast?

    let's see


    based on these comparatives here, one of them even using the VGA box

    https://youtu.be/C55UNY3t2U4
    https://youtu.be/EaoWueD23N8?t=279


    according to the movie the Da vinci code, people see what they want to see, the same is valid for these comparisons, just read the commentaries and almost everyone says the same thing, Dreamcast version is better.


    I decided to look deeply and see if this is true, using the comparison itself.




    In general the ps2 version has better textures in most parts of the game and greater clarity (at the opposite end of what is said repeatedly)

    The differences are:

    ps2 has a bigger fov

    the silver lighting over the car is abundant in the Dreamcast

    dreamcast is less sharp in the background due to the use of mip mapping

    The dreamcast version has 3d shadows on all vehicles, the ps2 only has 3d shadows on the main vehicle

    the ps2's shadow is completely black and looks like a hole. this shadow was probably simulated by not rendering the asphalt.

    The PS2 has volumetric lighting, the Dreamcast has good lighting, reflect

    ps2 has the characteristic jaggies of interlaced resolution. Dreamcast has jaggies too

    the reflections are better on the car's hood in the Dreamcast version, on the PS2 the reflection is better distributed by the vehicle, including reflections on the roof of the cars.


    See.

    https://i.imgur.com/RKwmR9S.png

    https://i.imgur.com/mS35d7O.jpg

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