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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #3121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    see lord of the ring third age, need for speed hot porsuit 2, metal arms glitch, spy hunter, all in first scene and first battle a I found 165 to 333k on Dolphin even if the real numbers are lower they are still high polygonal count per frame.
    I thought the re4 numbers were wrong and in the end, they were right at 230k per frame, which is a very high number.

    I honestly don't think it's an achievement, because other factors such as resolution, the resolution of first Jak game is 640x448, RE4 resolution GCN version is also 640x448 and drop to 512x448 in some scenes. however the useful resolution that is rendered is 640x278 and 512x278 due ''letterbox'', this puts RE4 in 30% fewer pixels than jak 1 when we assume the 640x448 resolution which is actually 640x278, but if we take the lowest numbers, which is the 512x448 resolution that actually is 512x278 since the black stripes aren't render, we have that jak 1 makes 60% more pixels, in short there is a higher rate of polygons / pixels/ unique colors. not wanting to transform here into a ps2 x gcn

    Just stop with the image collage , its annoying. You simply go off looks and nothing else so I doubt ill explore titles you suggest. Remember when you thought fingers on a model meant they were high poly a while back?( the model was sub 1000 tris) . The few times I even entertained your suggestion turns out to be a dud, the ps2 just doesnt go as high as you wish. I dont want this to be a gamecube vs ps2 thread so ill only entertain this once.

    All the capture means is Iam getting the models that are in the vram. I still maintain the numbers on the emulator are definately wrong, resident evil 4 gets around 250k count of something per frame in the emulator but when extracted since I capture the FULL level(including all offscreen stuff and behind me as well) and reads 316K tris for the frame. Thats around 9.5 mpps. Not all games behave like that , r racing evolution clips offscreen stuff like it should but thats another story. Anyway, only thing even close like that was Jak3 with its 130k tris per frame x 60 fps which is around 8mpps. Your bias is too heavy, even if the gc rez is lower the textures are of better quality theres more effects and lighting on it and oh you do realize to store 316k tris for that frame it will require double the memory in the vram for vertex buffers than jak 3 would. And nothing on the ps2 even gets close to that.

    A fair handicap for the ps2 seems to be rogue squadron 2 on the gc, they run around the same count. Even then the game uses bumpmapping and runs 480p, something the ps2 struggles , all this despite being what 3 years older than jak 3. Let alone the port it struggled to run of resident evil 4. The images below say it all.
    Hey at least we can a version mix like the ps2 and pc is how it would look like on the dreamcast lol.

    So the pc version is built on the ps2 version assets and i was also able to capture all models on the scene like the gamecube version. So lets compare:

    The gamecube version of resident evil 4 :
    Spying on the town - 316,792 tris per frame x 30 fps = 9.5mpps



    Pc version(uses ps2 assets) :
    same scene - 65,629 tris per frame x 30 fps = 1.9 mpps



    What the ps2 does with the scene:
    17,680 tris per frame x 30 fps = 530K pps
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 05-22-2020 at 04:57 PM.

  2. #3122
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Its strange, theres never been a circumstance where SegaAMD was trying to convince us that the GameCube or Dreamcast was doing something impressive compared to the PS2. Its always the other way around, with no exceptions.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Its strange, theres never been a circumstance where SegaAMD was trying to convince us that the GameCube or Dreamcast was doing something impressive compared to the PS2. Its always the other way around, with no exceptions.
    Lol. Funny. I know I shouldnt entertain but just that once.

    How's ephemeral Fantasia coming along. Still waiting for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Its strange, theres never been a circumstance where SegaAMD was trying to convince us that the GameCube or Dreamcast was doing something impressive compared to the PS2. Its always the other way around, with no exceptions.
    3:50 mark until 3:57 seconds. SegaAMD is the mirror holder.


    That is what he has reminded me of this entire time with his fucking garbage collage posts.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?



    [PSN] Segata-S //[Switch] FC-SW 3892 5228 2895 //[XBL]Dogi99


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Lol. Funny. I know I shouldnt entertain but just that once.

    How's ephemeral Fantasia coming along. Still waiting for that.
    I haven't even played it. But I'm starting to get more organized.

    The schedule is:

    1. Big post(a round up of various research)
    2. F1 Championship Season 2000
    3. ESPN International Track & Field
    4. Ephemeral Fantasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    3:50 mark until 3:57 seconds. SegaAMD is the mirror holder.


    That is what he has reminded me of this entire time with his fucking garbage collage posts.
    I sorta get it, but I think the picture of a PS2 with sperm on it is more effective.

    Anyways with SegaAMD being a PS2 fanboy, he'll like those posts I got planned.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I will be working on the big post and will post it tonight. So... stay tuned.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    My research with NullDC


    This post will be a round up of various Dreamcast games I've looked at. Some of them give some insane results, some not very impressive.


    Blue Stinger




    This was a very early Dreamcast game. Its not too bad graphically, despite the weak shadows.




    At the start of the game. 300,000 PPS



    Main character is 4300 polygons. Seems like a lot of polygons, but you gotta consider this whole scene was only 300,000 PPS. So this game uses super high-poly characters and low-poly level geometry.




    Talking to the fairy with very feminine curves. 450,000 PPS



    Fairy is 5000 polygons.




    The secondary character next to monster. 500,000 PPS



    Secondary character is 4300 polygons.




    Player select in pause menu. 200,000 PPS



    Main character is 3100 polygons.



    Secondary character is 3100 polygons.


    Zusar Vasar




    This was released in Japan only. Was likely considered too Japanese for a worldwide release. But I don't think we were missing out on much, its a crappy game with a lot of flaws.




    A ground race with no rival chariots on-screen. 400,000 PPS



    Elephants with harness are 4800 polygons.




    A replay with same chariot. 650,000 PPS



    Elephants and harness are 12000 polygons.




    Air race with no rival chariots on-screen. 400,000 PPS



    Birds and harness are 3000 polygons.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    My research with NullDC (Continued)


    Sonic Adventure




    The very famous Sonic Adventure. This was the first Dreamcast game I ever played. It is a good looking game with minor, inconsistent graphical flaws.




    I won't even bother mentioning where this scene is. 800,000 PPS



    Sonic is 1700 polygons.




    Again, won't bother mentioning where this scene is. 950,000 PPS



    Sonic is same 1700 polygons.




    In fight with Chaos. 500,000 PPS



    Chaos is 4100 polygons.




    In fight with Dr. Robotnik. 600,000 PPS



    Dr. Robotnik and ship are 3600 polygons.


    Mortal Kombat Gold




    This is a famous Dreamcast game even though its not very good. The biggest problem is the graphics. It was originally released for a arcade board thats quite a bit weaker than the Dreamcast, they then didn't do enough upgrading to the graphics when porting it to the Dreamcast. It has shadows that are no better than what you saw on 5th-gen consoles. With also low-poly level geometry and low-res textures.




    This is one of the many dreamcast games where the developer aimed for 1 million PPS. 1.1 million PPS



    Rival character is 6100 polygons. So the character models were upgraded and they are a good polycount.



    Player character is 6700 polygons.




    A bizarre scene. You can see how low-poly the level geometry is. 850,000 PPS



    Rival character is same 6100 polygons.



    Player character is 6500 polygons.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    My research with NullDC (Continued Part 2)


    Wacky Races




    I was blown away by this game. It has astronomical amounts of elbow grease put into it. They really tried to use the capabilities of the Dreamcast. I also think its graphically on-par with Ridge Racer V, even though both games have positives and negatives.

    I also see a lot of people online are confused about the frame rate of this game. I will show you how it goes:

    Player select: 60 FPS
    Hub world: 60 FPS
    Time trials: 60 FPS
    Single player race with 3 or less cars on-screen: 60 FPS
    Single player race with 4 or more cars on-screen: 30 FPS
    Multiplayer race with 2 cars on-screen: 60 FPS
    Multiplayer race with a lot of cars on-screen: 30 FPS
    Multiplayer race with all cars on-screen: 20 FPS

    The game is constantly manually changing between different framerates based on the circumstances. This was a very smart thing for the developers to do.




    In the hub world. This game runs at a similar PPS to Ridge Racer V. 2.25 million PPS




    In hub world again. 1.9 million PPS



    Player car is 13400 polygons in hub world.




    In single player race with a couple rival cars on-screen. 1.45 million PPS



    Player car is 11500 polygons. So even higher than Ridge Racer V.




    In multiplayer. 120,000 polygons. Seems like a hell of a lot of polygons for the Dreamcast, but you gotta consider that this scene is only running at 20 FPS so the developers found a technical loophole to make this work. 2.35 million PPS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    My research with NullDC (Continued Part 2)


    Wacky Races



    I was blown away by this game. It has astronomical amounts of elbow grease put into it. They really tried to use the capabilities of the Dreamcast. I also think its graphically on-par with Ridge Racer V, even though both games have positives and negatives.

    I also see a lot of people online are confused about the frame rate of this game. I will show you how it goes:

    Player select: 60 FPS
    Hub world: 60 FPS
    Time trials: 60 FPS
    Single player race with 3 or less cars on-screen: 60 FPS
    Single player race with 4 or more cars on-screen: 30 FPS
    Multiplayer race with 2 cars on-screen: 60 FPS
    Multiplayer race with a lot of cars on-screen: 30 FPS
    Multiplayer race with all cars on-screen: 20 FPS

    The game is constantly manually changing between different framerates based on the circumstances. This was a very smart thing for the developers to do.

    In the hub world. This game runs at a similar PPS to Ridge Racer V. 2.25 million PPS


    In hub world again. 1.9 million PPS


    Player car is 13400 polygons in hub world.


    In single player race with a couple rival cars on-screen. 1.45 million PPS



    Player car is 11500 polygons. So even higher than Ridge Racer V.


    In multiplayer. 120,000 polygons. Seems like a hell of a lot of polygons for the Dreamcast, but you gotta consider that this scene is only running at 20 FPS so the developers found a technical loophole to make this work. 2.35 million PPS
    This only cements nulldc is very unreliable. You basically got close 2x the actual polygon counts. For elliot from blue stinger hes actually 2,500 triangles straight from asset/model file. That number you got is ridiculously bad because the game uses backface culling so it should be less than the source model (its 4,300? what?). The elephant model from the asset is 7,500 tris with harness yet your got like 12K. I warned you before hand though and even showed you proof how nulldc fcks everything up in that regard.

    Mortal kombat gold I have never been able to get the converter to work but I did see models of people who have and the models range from 3,000- 4000 triangles like the devs claimed. Though nulldc is inaccurate I noticed you passed up the chance to get an even higher reading of the game, your suppose to do 2 vs 2 so when one person died their body parts(same quality as their player model) remain screen as the partner comes in. So its like 3 characters on screen plus huge polygon blood drops. The arcade machine its based off is actually pretty powerful and its rated to do 1 million quads( 2 million triangles kinda like model 3). But according to a document written by the person who emulated it it does 600K quads(1.2 million polygons tops i guess). Its very interesting.

    For wacky races I know the author of demul told another user that wacky races peaked 70K vertices per frame at 30 fps( they were comparing to sega naomi 2 which surprisingly also peaks at a similar number per frame but does 6 light sources @ 60 fps vs most likely 1 on the dc.)

    Look at the picks below, theres basically 0% chance those nulldc numbers can be right.

    Orginal model from file of gdrom :


    nulldc being inaccurate:


    elephants from model files:

  11. #3131
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    I disagree that MK Gold is a bad looking game to Dreamcast standarts, it's way above fifth generation Mk4 versions, negative is that lighting of fireballs doesn't react on the character's bodies while the ps1, n64 and arcade versions does.

  12. #3132
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    This only cements nulldc is very unreliable. You basically got close 2x the actual polygon counts. For elliot from blue stinger hes actually 2,500 triangles straight from asset/model file. That number you got is ridiculously bad because the game uses backface culling so it should be less than the source model (its 4,300? what?). The elephant model from the asset is 7,500 tris with harness yet your got like 12K. I warned you before hand though and even showed you proof how nulldc fcks everything up in that regard.

    Mortal kombat gold I have never been able to get the converter to work but I did see models of people who have and the models range from 3,000- 4000 triangles like the devs claimed. Though nulldc is inaccurate I noticed you passed up the chance to get an even higher reading of the game, your suppose to do 2 vs 2 so when one person died their body parts(same quality as their player model) remain screen as the partner comes in. So its like 3 characters on screen plus huge polygon blood drops. The arcade machine its based off is actually pretty powerful and its rated to do 1 million quads( 2 million triangles kinda like model 3). But according to a document written by the person who emulated it it does 600K quads(1.2 million polygons tops i guess). Its very interesting.

    For wacky races I know the author of demul told another user that wacky races peaked 70K vertices per frame at 30 fps( they were comparing to sega naomi 2 which surprisingly also peaks at a similar number per frame but does 6 light sources @ 60 fps vs most likely 1 on the dc.)

    Look at the picks below, theres basically 0% chance those nulldc numbers can be right.

    Orginal model from file of gdrom :


    nulldc being inaccurate:


    elephants from model files:
    Then you're gonna have to take your own personal grain of salt whenever I post Dreamcast games. I can't be debating this for months and months. NullDC is never saying anything thats unrealistic for the Dreamcast. I only got 1700 polygons for Sonic in Sonic Adventure, thats very low for a AAA 1st party game running at 30 FPS.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Also here we go again: http://system16.com/hardware.php?id=543&page=3

    NAMCO SYSTEM 246 HARDWARE

    CPU : 128 Bit "Emotion Engine"
    - System Clock: 300 MHz
    - System Memory: 32 MB Direct Rambus
    - Maximum Polygon Rate: 75 Million Polygons Per Second
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  14. #3134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Then you're gonna have to take your own personal grain of salt whenever I post Dreamcast games. I can't be debating this for months and months. NullDC is never saying anything thats unrealistic for the Dreamcast. I only got 1700 polygons for Sonic in Sonic Adventure, thats very low for a AAA 1st party game running at 30 FPS.
    I see. Even your sonic number is slightly off. It's 1300 to 1500, it's been a while since I seen it Some games seem more affected than other. But it's a massive grain of salt. The games you listed are showing 2x their actual geometry. That's huge. Well I'll stop bugging you about it but that stuff like wacky races the DC probably doesn't even have enough memory to even store vertex buffer big enough for 120k polys for the scene.

  15. #3135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I don't know what that means but I know the gscube(a special ps2 machine that's equal to x16 ps2) meant for cg prototyping did 1 million polygons per FRAME for antz. Now I think that was at 60 fps . So 60 million polygons per second at 1080p . Keep that in mind sixteen ps2 is 60mpps.

    Edit: here we go
    .The star of the show was Sony's GScube, 16 PlayStation 2s in one box. We ported RenderWare to GScube and then worked with PDI to bring the bar scene from the Antz movie to life on the GScube," company officials explained. "140 ants of around 7,000 polygons each, running in real-time at 60Hz on a HDTV set-up. That's over 1 million polygons per frame at 1920x1080 resolution."
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 05-24-2020 at 07:25 PM.

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