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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I see. Even your sonic number is slightly off. It's 1300 to 1500, it's been a while since I seen it Some games seem more affected than other. But it's a massive grain of salt. The games you listed are showing 2x their actual geometry. That's huge. Well I'll stop bugging you about it but that stuff like wacky races the DC probably doesn't even have enough memory to even store vertex buffer big enough for 120k polys for the scene.
    But thats what I mean by not saying anything realistic. Like if you think that NullDC is giving double the polycounts, this means I would've encountered a game running at 4.2 million PPS which would translate to 2.1 million PPS in reality. I've never encountered any game that hits those numbers.

    Of the games I've looked at:
    -96% of them don't hit 3 million PPS
    -99.5% of them don't go past 3 million PPS
    -70% of them don't hit 2 million PPS
    -40% of them don't hit 1 million PPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I don't know what that means but I know the gscube(a special ps2 machine that's equal to x16 ps2) meant for cg prototyping did 1 million polygons per FRAME for antz. Now I think that was at 60 fps . So 60 million polygons per second at 1080p . Keep that in mind sixteen ps2 is 60mpps.
    The Namco System 246 is a stock PS2 arcade board, they're still using the 75 million PPS claim even though you just showed thats impossible. People need to start learning that 75 million PPS is what you see with PS3 games.


    Anyways, I got a small post to post soon before I look at F1 Championship Season 2000 and SegaAMD will have to bring a spare pair of underpants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    But thats what I mean by not saying anything realistic. Like if you think that NullDC is giving double the polycounts, this means I would've encountered a game running at 4.2 million PPS which would translate to 2.1 million PPS in reality. I've never encountered any game that hits those numbers.

    Of the games I've looked at:
    -96% of them don't hit 3 million PPS
    -99.5% of them don't go past 3 million PPS
    -70% of them don't hit 2 million PPS
    -40% of them don't hit 1 million PPS



    The Namco System 246 is a stock PS2 arcade board, they're still using the 75 million PPS claim even though you just showed thats impossible. People need to start learning that 75 million PPS is what you see with PS3 games.


    Anyways, I got a small post to post soon before I look at F1 Championship Season 2000 and SegaAMD will have to bring a spare pair of underpants.
    That's the thing if blue stinger is 500k then it's most likely doing half that or suzar vasar maybe doing 300k pps and not 600k. And that's just two example only because it doesn't reach 3 million or stays 1 million doesn't mean it's not 1.5mpps or 500k pps. That's. Big difference, could mean a lot more games might not even reach 2million or be slightly less than 1 million. But whatever man. Like I said I'll drop this big concern.

    Yes the gscube being 16 ps2 is very different and cool. 60 mpps at 60 fps 1080p in early 2000s is rather amazing. But like you said the proof is in the pudding if that's 16 of them no way in hell 1 is 75 million or even 20 mpps.

    Ha ha ha. I hope you will show the "superior" textures lol.

  3. #3138
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets Leynos's Avatar
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    I don't expect anyone to test it. Just an honest question looking for an educated guess. What is the ballpark for PSP Polygons per second? I have heard somewhere close to 2MPPS and it sounds right to me but wanted a second opinion.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    I don't expect anyone to test it. Just an honest question looking for an educated guess. What is the ballpark for PSP Polygons per second? I have heard somewhere close to 2MPPS and it sounds right to me but wanted a second opinion.
    Well I've seen quite a bit of psp assets. Pretty much 1mpps to 3mpps. Being newer though it uses bloom and shadowmapped textures quite often. God of wars ghost of Sparta seems to run from 40k Tris per frame to like 68k Tris per frame at 30 fps(seems to be frame rate unlocked though. Not 100% sure). Which like 1.5 mpps to 2 mpps. From y Suzuki's own notes he said shenmue 1 tops out at 1.5mpps which is 50k Tris per frame at 30 fps.

    Psp and DC seem very similar but the psp lacks video ram leading to smaller texture. Psp cpu might be faster and it can multi texture natively. From what understand the DC can't really multi texture but there are tricks to make it fast by reusing vertex data so "it's almost free" or so I heard.

    Here's a post were I have the 3rd birthday assets, there's no doubt in my mind you can reproduce this on the DC.
    https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2124543/
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 05-24-2020 at 09:15 PM.

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    What did I learn about Wacky Races?


    This is a Dreamcast game with actual good roadside detail. Let me show you why.



    This gas station has lots of parts that are fully modeled.



    A Dreamcast developer actually knew that the Dreamcast is capable of polygonal windows. Also I don't know if thats real volumetric lighting but it still looks pretty good.



    A barber shop.



    Again, the fact that the windows are polygonal makes the buildings look so much better.


    So this a big difference compared to a game like Vanishing Point where the buildings are made of 10 polygons.
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    it would be interesting to name and count the dreamcast games that exceed 1.9M of polygons, some are floigan bros, dead or alive 2, giga wings, ikaruga, triggerheart exelica perhaps jet set radio, less than ten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So this a big difference compared to a game like Vanishing Point where the buildings are made of 10 polygons.
    there is an explanation for this, games in cell shading are closer to the gourad shading used in synthetic measurements of polygons so it is in this type of game that the counts tend to be higher.

    this means that Vanishing Point is more demanding than this game and therefore has a low poly, the same applies to any game whether racing or not as they become more realistic, so contrary to what is disclosed in this topic, less polygons an AAA game show how advanced it is. situation cannot be confused with low budget games. this explains why the most beautiful and advanced dreamcast games are floating around 1M PPS.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 05-24-2020 at 11:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Well I've seen quite a bit of psp assets. Pretty much 1mpps to 3mpps. Being newer though it uses bloom and shadowmapped textures quite often. God of wars ghost of Sparta seems to run from 40k Tris per frame to like 68k Tris per frame at 30 fps(seems to be frame rate unlocked though. Not 100% sure). Which like 1.5 mpps to 2 mpps. From y Suzuki's own notes he said shenmue 1 tops out at 1.5mpps which is 50k Tris per frame at 30 fps.

    Psp and DC seem very similar but the psp lacks video ram leading to smaller texture. Psp cpu might be faster and it can multi texture natively. From what understand the DC can't really multi texture but there are tricks to make it fast by reusing vertex data so "it's almost free" or so I heard.

    Here's a post were I have the 3rd birthday assets, there's no doubt in my mind you can reproduce this on the DC.
    https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2124543/
    Thank you!

    Life!? ... What console is that on?



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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it would be interesting to name and count the dreamcast games that exceed 1.9M of polygons, some are floigan bros, dead or alive 2, giga wings, ikaruga, triggerheart exelica perhaps jet set radio, less than ten.



    there is an explanation for this, games in cell shading are closer to the gourad shading used in synthetic measurements of polygons so it is in this type of game that the counts tend to be higher.

    this means that Vanishing Point is more demanding than this game and therefore has a low poly, the same applies to any game whether racing or not as they become more realistic, so contrary to what is disclosed in this topic, less polygons an AAA game show how advanced it is. situation cannot be confused with low budget games. this explains why the most beautiful and advanced dreamcast games are floating around 1M PPS.
    Nope wrong.Normally cel shading isn't too heavy... On modern hardware. On the Dreamcast it's a different story . Also it's nothing like gouraud shading.

    On the Dreamcast you have to draw cel shaded objects in a second pass in a way similar to shadow maps. It's a texture that tells the lighting to react base on a "threshold" of light or dark. So it's fillrate intensive ( something the DC doesn't have much of. ) So the fact they are pulling 70k vertex per frame AND cell shaded makes it an advanced game. Not to mention this game is decent physics and is animated well. They achieved something really good. Probably the most geometry per frame on a DC game.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 05-24-2020 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it would be interesting to name and count the dreamcast games that exceed 1.9M of polygons, some are floigan bros, dead or alive 2, giga wings, ikaruga, triggerheart exelica perhaps jet set radio, less than ten.
    Thats not much of an accomplishment, theres probably like a 100 Dreamcast games that hit that. Above 2.5 million PPS would be more interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    there is an explanation for this, games in cell shading are closer to the gourad shading used in synthetic measurements of polygons so it is in this type of game that the counts tend to be higher.

    this means that Vanishing Point is more demanding than this game and therefore has a low poly, the same applies to any game whether racing or not as they become more realistic, so contrary to what is disclosed in this topic, less polygons an AAA game show how advanced it is. situation cannot be confused with low budget games. this explains why the most beautiful and advanced dreamcast games are floating around 1M PPS.
    Theres no way Vanishing Point is more demanding than this game. The situation is the developers were good at car models but they weren't also good at roadside detail, the same as Genki. Developers like Namco knew how roadside detail is done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Thank you!
    Hes definitely not the only person I've seen who says the PSP and Dreamcast are very similar.
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    Stay tuned...




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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Stay tuned...


    []
    You know an interesting comparison is 90 minutes for the DC and J league spectacle soccer also for dc. Both are actually the same game made by smile bit BUT the Japanese version has massive graphics tweaks that aren't apparent at first but completely overhaul the polygon count and frame rate.
    It got dowgraded sightly for Japan to improve the frame rate, they removed all press and arena side detail . Instead they use the soccer players cutscenes lod more aggressively ( the cutscenes lods have really detailed faces and even creased uniforms, wouldn't be surprised if they were close to 3k even without fingers).

    Maybe I'll do a write-up on the subtle differences one of these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    You know an interesting comparison is 90 minutes for the DC and J league spectacle soccer also for dc. Both are actually the same game made by smile bit BUT the Japanese version has massive graphics tweaks that aren't apparent at first but completely overhaul the polygon count and frame rate.
    It got dowgraded sightly for Japan to improve the frame rate, they removed all press and arena side detail . Instead they use the soccer players cutscenes lod more aggressively ( the cutscenes lods have really detailed faces and even creased uniforms, wouldn't be surprised if they were close to 3k even without fingers).

    Maybe I'll do a write-up on the subtle differences one of these days.
    I actually got J League Spectacle Soccer in my Dreamcast list, but haven't been motivated to look at it because I looked at the 1999 J League Soccer game and it was 800,000 PPS at 30 FPS. Sports games at 30 FPS are quite meh. But if you say they improved all that then I think its worth looking at.

    Also what you suggested is very smart, I could play 90 Minutes just to learn how to play the game in English and that would make it somewhat easy to translate to J League Spectacle Soccer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I actually got J League Spectacle Soccer in my Dreamcast list, but haven't been motivated to look at it because I looked at the 1999 J League Soccer game and it was 800,000 PPS at 30 FPS. Sports games at 30 FPS are quite meh. But if you say they improved all that then I think its worth looking at.

    Also what you suggested is very smart, I could play 90 Minutes just to learn how to play the game in English and that would make it somewhat easy to translate to J League Spectacle Soccer.
    Depends what you consider an upgrade . They lowered the polygon count on the Japanese release due to 90 minutes frame rate being all over the place on real hardware( own both I know this from experience). For the most part gameplay is 400k to 700k @ 30 fps depending if you the low behind the goal keeper camera. Since 90 minutes has more side detail it can spoke up to 1.15mpps @ 25 fps in rare occasions.

    Also during the entrance the Japanese version tends to use the cutscene lod for the 4 closest players while 90 minutes sticks to medium detail especially because there's more models on the side.

    Yes the menus translate exactly. If you can zoom in on a cutscene lod player face , it's very detailed.

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    Though now that I think about a third party did better than Sega themselves soccer wise and graphically. It's uefa dream soccer , it's smooth 60 fps and even more detailed.
    The celebrations or when you get a red or yellow card are like mini cutscenes with facial animations. And textures are filtered because there's almost no shimmering unlike j spectacle/90 minutes. It even has cinematic camera though it's unplayable like that.

    I remember when it was still called Sega worldwide soccer 2001 the devs talk about the specs alittle. They said each player at the highest lod were 2,500 Tris and the arenas are 5,000 Tris.

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    So I went to look further into Sydney 2000 for dreamcast. Very interesting game. It has a great amount of detail but the artstyle / texturing is so bad it hides it big time. It also has variable framerates from 60 fps to 30 fps to 20 fps. The character models like terrible UNTIL, you look at their wifeframe, they are modeled really well and very detailed. just wow. I dont think nulldc give accurate counts but I use it as comparison tool and it does put it on the same level as wacky races.












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