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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #2776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So they slightly rounded-up, but its fine to claim this game is 90,000 PPS.


    Also as someone with no interest in fighting games, I can still recognize that this game has no charisma. But its still an accomplishment in PS1 polycounts.
    They didn't round up, there's just a bunch of polygons not showing up in your counter because they were culled due to not being visible - they still had to crunch the math for those. Plus some characters/levels can use more polygons, the boss for example is a huge armoured samurai with a giant sword and 2 scorpion tails hanging off its back - definitely uses more polygons than the rest of the cast, but the bastard sword wielding knight (Duke) probably has more polys too. Also note that the game has a lot of transparent effects, one character is clothed entirely in transparent clothes, and Kayins stage has a TV monitor that uses framebuffer to texture. The demonstration after beating the game also uses motion blur effect.

    But most importantly: it was a LAUNCH TITLE. It's so early, that the executable on the CD is even lacking the SLPS serial code in it. It was something like the first or second released game on the console.

    And the game had plenty of charisma, they just screwed it all up in the English ports by changing all the voice actors. In the original version the characters all sounded bad ass. Also, the game had kick ass music (it still used CD Audio too).

  2. #2777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Virtua Fighter 2 does look better, its no contest. It might be running as low as 60,000 PPS but polygons don't mean everything unless its a huge gap.
    VF2 had the VDP2 handling all the backgrounds, and all the characters had relatively little fluff on them, the models were all extremely simple. Jacky's 2p model with the jacket was probably the most complex one. Compared to that Toshinden had all characters wearing weapons, or having complex designs like detailed armour on a knight or a layer of transparent pants and so on. It's why VF2 has models with proper "heft" for the arms and legs while Toshinden characters sometimes have a triangular cone for a leg because they ran out of the polygon budget rendering the bigass sword the guy is holding. Also note that the Toshinden models had index fingers and thumbs.

    What makes VF2 look better is the super silky smooth animation. Toshindens animation was extremely choppy and the button inputs were very laggy too, probably why the game had 2 keys reserved for doing one-button-specials. The MS-DOS port of the game had its own animation code and had way smoother animation, but they had to remove the transparencies and the backgrounds turned into scrolling bitmaps. But at least they used the original voices in that port. And added Earthworm Jim as a hidden character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    .



    I'm sorry but it's not; 80-90k it's a standard game on PS1, see Tobal N1 and you'll find 120k, the fighting game Iron Blood claims to have 225k. they are to be congratulated for getting 3k polygons per frame as it is an early game.

    but I would like to measure PS1 games although it has a limit of 3k per scene at 30fps 2k at 60fps. I only know of a game that reaches 4k polygons per scene (MGS cutscene) the N64 makes from 1K to 7K per scene, but in contrast the frame rate drops to less than 20fps, which at the end much more the same.
    Sega Saturn has a limit of 2k quads per frame which generates a maximum of 60k, it seems little but if we convert to triangles it gives 2x, 120k, I think that only Sonic R can handle this count with a stable frame rate.
    Tobal No 1 is 99% texureless.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  4. #2779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Now, how about the people looking at it retroactively and saying it runs at 60 FPS?

    http://www.blackfalcongames.net/?p=156



    Its quite clear hes relying upon his own impressions that the game runs at 60 FPS

    LOLOL

    You're actually quoting a moron like ABF as proof of something?? WT actual fuck!

    BTW its already been pointed out that most of those emulator benchmarks are likely BS. You're relying on a crappy old plugin that is converting what the console (PS/PS2/Dreamcast/whatever) does in the game to Direct 3D. I would take the model data extracted from the disc to be more accurate tbh.
    Last edited by stu; 02-08-2020 at 10:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Virtua Fighter 2 does look better, its no contest. It might be running as low as 60,000 PPS but polygons don't mean everything unless its a huge gap.
    AM#2 said that VF1 on the Saturn is made up of more polygons. What I liked more about VF2 on the Saturn compared even the Arcade was how you had much smoother look arms and joints, with none of the square bocks you got with the Model2 version. I have to say I think Last Bronx is far more impressive than VF2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Tobal No 1 is 99% texureless.
    In one of the Edge specials with Ken. Kutaragi-san said that running the sequel Tobal No 2, through the performance analyzer, made the best use of the PS chipset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    In one of the Edge specials with Ken. Kutaragi-san said that running the sequel Tobal No 2, through the performance analyzer, made the best use of the PS chipset.
    Lots of devs bitd and later in hindsight make those kinds of claims.

    One of the top guys who worked on Dark Savior said in an interview (with Gamefan?) that DS was the max performance possible from the Saturn.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Lots of devs bitd and later in hindsight make those kinds of claims.

    One of the top guys who worked on Dark Savior said in an interview (with Gamefan?) that DS was the max performance possible from the Saturn.
    This isn't the developer, but the man how made the PlayStation hardware. I have that interview from Game Fan and Naito-San simple said he had maxed out the speed of the VDP 1 chip, which was a common issue for Saturn developers . That said the game looks amazing and in a interview with Bleep in Japan , I see to remember Naito-san saying the game was pushing over 100,000 polygons.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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  9. #2784
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    sega saturn has a very clear limit those devs that claim 100k polygons are doubling the real count, since saturn uses quads the conversion into triangles sounds something like double, however polygons are polygons. here some counts made by emulator.


    Hardcore 4x4: 1500 quads 30fps slowdowns to 10fps
    Sonic R: 1266 quads 30fps
    Sonic R split screen: 1374 30fps
    Virtua Fighter 1: 1320/ arcade Model 1 has 2520 textureless
    VF2 60fps 40 Mpps: less polygons in char than VF1
    Fifa 97ver 1000 quads a 30fps
    Tomb Raider: 1300 quads 30-17fps, average 20fps
    Nasca 98: over 1000 quads 20fps.

    Quake: average 750 quads per frame at 30fps
    Quake: max 822 a 16fps ( slowdown)
    ghen war: 780
    Powe slave: 990
    Duken nuken 3D: 1.140
    Darklight conflict: 1.324
    Congo: the movie 644


    Tomb raider: 640 at 30fps
    Tomb raider: 1.300 on slowdown de 15fps
    Croc: 1.079 30fps
    Burning Ranges: 1.200 a 20fps
    Resident evil: 600 at 30fps
    Bulk slashe 600 at 25fps
    Nights into Dreams: 700 at 30fps
    Loaded: 400 at 30fps
    shining force 3: 600 at 30fps

    Fightings K1: 850 at 30fps
    Fighting Megamix: 570
    Fighting vipers: 600
    Virtua fighter 2: 560
    Virtua fighter 1: 950 quads at 30fps (VF Remix 650 quads per frame)
    Last bronx: 583 at 60fps
    Fighting force demo: 1200 at 30fps

    Daytona CE: 920 at 30fps
    Virtua racing: 960 at 60
    Nascar 98: 1021 at 20fps
    Sega Rally: 843 at 30fps
    Manx TT: 784 at 30fps
    Need for speed: 2 player: 640 at 30fps
    Daytona: 953 at 20fps
    Jurassic park: 600 at 30fps
    Wipeout: 840 at 20fps
    wipeout 2097: 764 at 20fps

  10. #2785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    This isn't the developer, but the man how made the PlayStation hardware. I have that interview from Game Fan and Naito-San simple said he had maxed out the speed of the VDP 1 chip, which was a common issue for Saturn developers . That said the game looks amazing and in a interview with Bleep in Japan , I see to remember Naito-san saying the game was pushing over 100,000 polygons.
    He's also infamous for being one of the biggest bullshitters in the history of the industry and most of his lies have been about performance of Playstation hardware.

    That doesn't mean that what he said couldn't be true, but he is definitely not any better than others making similar types of claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    He's also infamous for being one of the biggest bullshitters in the history of the industry and most of his lies have been about performance of Playstation hardware.
    Its SONY, its to be expected. But you needed to see the context of the interview, it wasn't ken making silly claims. It was ken saying, that when SONY run games through the performance analyzer Tobal No 2 was pushing the PS the hardware ( I think over 90%) when F1 97 was using around 70% and F1 97 got wide praise for its gfx engine at the time
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    First off, the Dreamcast was doomed from the start. No hardware company could survive so many screw-ups one after another, from a financial perspective. For the Dreamcast to be a success, you gotta take out one of their screw-ups. Like maybe the 32X wasn't released, or the Saturn had a good launch, or they didn't discontinue the Genesis so fast, or they made the Saturn a profitable success.

    Also Virtua Fighter 3 gets my approval. Sega Rally 2 is a hunk of junk.
    I personally think SR2 was a disaster (even if it had one of the best console modes in racing games, the 10 year championship), VF3 was a decent port that could've been better in the right hand (YS), but they both had a very bad reputation on magazines, and this didn't helped the DC that was perceived as a weak console.

    Since we are in topic, have you ever tried to compare the poly count of VF3 on DC and the Model 3 version? It could be interesting.


    Yes the company was in horrible financial shape and they were expecting the Dreamcast to start printing them money, of course thats not gonna happen when the most hyped console in history is gonna be released.
    That's the point, that was a real gamble that costed Sega the future in the hardware business (and much more).
    It's not like they weren't prepared, they already knew from the Saturn that Sony was impossible to beat for anyone, and PS2 was the next big thing, why they didn't choose to play safe, survive and fight another time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter View Post
    I personally think SR2 was a disaster (even if it had one of the best console modes in racing games, the 10 year championship), VF3 was a decent port that could've been better in the right hand (YS), but they both had a very bad reputation on magazines, and this didn't helped the DC that was perceived as a weak console.

    Since we are in topic, have you ever tried to compare the poly count of VF3 on DC and the Model 3 version? It could be interesting.
    Sega Rally II was still a very nice game, but it needed to be a whole lot more. VF 3TB was all but perfect and I just remember an interview with Genki on the old Dreamcast Technical Pages and where Genki said the DC version of VF used 96 to 98% of the Model 3 polygons.
    It was very close . Its big trouble was by the time of the US/Pal launch of the DC it looked outdated thanks to SC.

    It's not like they weren't prepared, they already knew from the Saturn that Sony was impossible to beat for anyone, and PS2 was the next big thing, why they didn't choose to play safe, survive and fight another time
    I don't think anyone saw that the PS2 would do even better than the PS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Sega Rally II was still a very nice game, but it needed to be a whole lot more. VF 3TB was all but perfect and I just remember an interview with Genki on the old Dreamcast Technical Pages and where Genki said the DC version of VF used 96 to 98% of the Model 3 polygons.
    It was very close . Its big trouble was by the time of the US/Pal launch of the DC it looked outdated thanks to SC.
    Yes Soul Calibur also contributed to make VF3 look outdated.
    Even side by side arcade and DC version of VF3 feel similar, but it's in details that DC loses.

    Apart the real differencies arcade-DC, what damaged the reputation is that magazine etc. expected every portings to be "arcade perfect" (like it should be), instead the two most important and most wanted Sega portings suffered (because of rushed development, VF3 even lacked a real VS mode in japan version, in Europe the game wasn't even optimized for Pal, leaving with an even more clunky edition), and this only left DC with the mark of a weak console, even other launch games didn't help to improve the initial reputation.
    Luckly Sonic Adventure was amazing, but even this suffered for a rushed development mainly with scenery pop-up, and magazines just focused on this.

    Rushed development was always (and still is) a weak point for Sega.




    I don't think anyone saw that the PS2 would do even better than the PS
    I don't know, the hype at the time was terrific, I personally expected a massive success.
    But even in the worst case scenario for Sony, the PS2 would've been just on par with PS1 = another failure for Sega in any case.

    Sega should've choose a defensive strategy, the first time they were excused because everyone understimated Sony during the 32bit, but the second time you already knew your enemy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter View Post
    Yes Soul Calibur also contributed to make VF3 look outdated.
    Even side by side arcade and DC version of VF3 feel similar, but it's in details that DC loses.

    Apart the real differencies arcade-DC, what damaged the reputation is that magazine etc. expected every portings to be "arcade perfect" (like it should be), instead the two most important and most wanted Sega portings suffered (because of rushed development, VF3 even lacked a real VS mode in japan version)
    That's the thing. In the Arcades there was no Vs mode, the 2nd player had to press start on the unit for 2 players Vs matches, that's how close of a port this was (in some parts it was too Arcade perfect) . The game was Pal optimized but for speed, so it still had borders, but then so did a lot of Pal PS2 games. So it was just another example of SONY love-in and bias from the gaming press.

    I don't know, the hype at the time was terrific, I personally expected a massive success
    I expected it does well, but I thought with SEGA and Nintendo upping their game, it would have hard a harder time, but even with MS in the battle. SONY went on to sell even more
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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