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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I should give a disclaimer. That ESPN International Track & Field post only took a couple hours to create. The big delay is because of putting a new graphics card in my computer which didn't work the first time, and also tasks about moving. I should have better consistency now.

    Looking at a RPG now will feel like a breath of fresh air. Its hard to tell which ones of you are J-RPG guys(besides Leynos) but they are one of my mid-high favourite genres.

    Also no more spam posts from me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    I should give a disclaimer. That ESPN International Track & Field post only took a couple hours to create. The big delay is because of putting a new graphics card in my computer which didn't work the first time, and also tasks about moving. I should have better consistency now.

    Looking at a RPG now will feel like a breath of fresh air. Its hard to tell which ones of you are J-RPG guys(besides Leynos) but they are one of my mid-high favourite genres.

    Also no more spam posts from me.
    I am looking forward to ephemeral Fantasia because I already expect Konami to be lazy and barely upgrade a game once meant for dc ( zone of the enders says hi).

  3. #3183
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    First look at Ephemeral Fantasia.


    I really like this game. I should've figured from the Greek words in the title, it would have a Greek theme, so that is the case and makes me like it even more. But of course the most notable thing about this game is its a Dreamcast game in disguise. It was first developed for the Dreamcast, and still looks like a mid-1999 Dreamcast game. I mean literally every graphical aspect of the game looks Dreamcast-style, from the shadows to the character models. Why they then didn't just make it a PS2/Dreamcast multiplat is beyond me, I assume Sony was desperate for J-RPGs since there really isn't many released for the PS2 in 2000, and Konami had this in development.




    I will remind everyone, this is actually on PS2 despite the Dreamcast graphics.



    This character has a lot less polygons than you'd expect.



    This game has a lot of good fully-modeled assets like the fences.



    Greek architecture. The town looks pretty good despite the game not having many polygons for a Dreamcast game and especially a PS2 game.

    A full post for this game is the next thing I will be working on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    First look at Ephemeral Fantasia.


    I really like this game. I should've figured from the Greek words in the title, it would have a Greek theme, so that is the case and makes me like it even more. But of course the most notable thing about this game is its a Dreamcast game in disguise. It was first developed for the Dreamcast, and still looks like a mid-1999 Dreamcast game. I mean literally every graphical aspect of the game looks Dreamcast-style, from the shadows to the character models. Why they then didn't just make it a PS2/Dreamcast multiplat is beyond me, I assume Sony was desperate for J-RPGs since there really isn't many released for the PS2 in 2000, and Konami had this in development.




    I will remind everyone, this is actually on PS2 despite the Dreamcast graphics.



    This character has a lot less polygons than you'd expect.



    This game has a lot of good fully-modeled assets like the fences.



    Greek architecture. The town looks pretty good despite the game not having many polygons for a Dreamcast game and especially a PS2 game.

    A full post for this game is the next thing I will be working on.
    I find the most interesting part of the game to be the gameplay. It kinda has a guitar hero thing going on every now and then. According to some reports this game was supposed to have some Sega based cameos when they cancelled it. I don't think it had anything to do with don't, they just weren't confident on dc game sale. I think the worst part of this game is the battle camera. Quality wise I think it's on par with time stalkers on the Dreamcast.

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I find the most interesting part of the game to be the gameplay. It kinda has a guitar hero thing going on every now and then. According to some reports this game was supposed to have some Sega based cameos when they cancelled it. I don't think it had anything to do with don't, they just weren't confident on dc game sale. I think the worst part of this game is the battle camera. Quality wise I think it's on par with time stalkers on the Dreamcast.
    Yes the battle camera seems like it would cause a lot of people motion-sickness.

    It just doesn't make sense because this game must've been 90% complete for the Dreamcast, usually when that is the case the developer releases the game anyway even if its only gonna sell a couple hundred thousand. Thats why Headhunter was released in late 2001. But we'll never know what the situation is.
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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post

    PS2 ESPN looks the best, however night and day differences is impossible. Virtua Athlete 2000 has better textures and runs at about the same polycounts.
    There's a huge difference for me and I play VA via the DC VGA box too and ESPN Track and Field looks so more impressive (better game to boot) the modelling of the characters just looks so wrong and horrible I really don't know why Hitmaker outsourced VA to Climax; after the amazing work, their did with Decathlete and Winter Heat on the Saturn. For my money, Virtua Striker 2 on the DC was the most impressive looking sports game from SEGA Japan. Ok I know it was ported by Genki, but sure AV worked on the NA@MI version .

    Visual Concepts were just in another league mind.
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  7. #3187
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    That RPG looks like a blurrier DC game. Might look into it if not crazy expensive.

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    So i decided to continue running test on how unreliable nulldc is for this. Found a game who only had 1 3d model and its fully on screen. Also I was able to get this 3d model asset straight from the disc for a 1:1 comparison of the disc asset vs emulator. This is from the game Pachinko no Dendou CR Nanashi. What i found was that extracting from the emulator gave me twice the polygon count, making nulldc totally unsuitable for direct polygon counting. Sure since the game uses sprites for somethings adding a couple thoughsand for triangles wouldnt have been and issue but double the amount is unacceptable .

    Direct asset from gdrom:

    Pachinko machine - 15,572 triangles


    Nulldc version;
    30,273 triangles per frame


  9. #3189
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Any update on Pen Pen ?
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  10. #3190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Any update on Pen Pen ?
    I already said I can't do pen pen. It doesn't use the ninja format for it's models. And running through the emulator will just distort the results by doubling it or more. Which will make it highly inaccurate and inflated.
    Last edited by Cloofoofoo; 06-15-2020 at 09:57 AM.

  11. #3191
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    I already said I can't do pen pen. It doesn't use the ninja format for it's models. And running through the emulator will just distort the results by doubling it or more. Which will make it highly inaccurate and inflated.
    Shame, Would have liked to seen what Land Ho was able to get out of the system
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Shame, Would have liked to seen what Land Ho was able to get out of the system
    Yes would have been interesting but you gotta remember it's a split screen game. Single player graphics were never gonna be great. For most of the time nulldc shows it's below 1mpps (sometimes it spikes up), around 800k -300k. So if nulldc is really doubling you're looking at 150k to 400k pps@ 60fps. That's not so great really..

  13. #3193
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    TA I know you're on paid vacation, but I got Pen Pen at about 80% complete and can post it since you've been a constant member of this thread from the start.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Ill do something a little different. A quick comparison between ps2 vs naomi 2. Its dreamcast related since naomi 2 is based on the dreamcast architecture. Its specs are incredibly increased from the dreamcast, it has the same cpu at the same clock but it has 32 mb of main ram , 32mb vram , 32 mb ram for polygon data. The gpu is two powervr 2dc found on naomi 1( the naomi 1 have twice the fillrate of the dreamcast version). its rated at 10 mpps @ 60 fps with 6 light sources. Realistically it seems to be around 5 mpps with 6 light sources @ 60 fps. Am2 states about virtua fighter 4 rate it at 12,000 triangles per character and around 75,000 triangles for the stages. If everything is onscreen thats around 4.5 mpps at 60 fps.

    When they brought the game to ps2 they cut the polygon count of the characters in half and reduced detail on the stages. The textures seem to take a massive blow. The amount of lights also seem to have been cut down even though the amount of polygons were cut down. For virtua fighter 4 evolution the character geometry seems to be tweaked to make the faces look better but according to the emulator its not any higher than the first port. Strangely the port seems to use an environment map texture to mimic the specular gloss of the arcade version( i extracted that textue to confirm). You think the port looks fine till you put it head to head against the arcade version and the differences is staggering. Makes me wonder how a dreamcast version would be since naomi 2 is more similar to dc in hardware.

    This also reminds me of how fighting vipers 2 on the model 3 got basically chopped in half and one of the stages was basically remade(super downgraded) when it was brought to dreamcast. At that point Dead or alive 2 was already out for years and it showed there was no excuse for that though. Shame on AM2.

    Virtua fighter 4 ps2:


    virtua fighter 4 evo ps2:


    virtua fighter 4 Naomi 2:

  15. #3195
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Yes the difference is huge, however I expect to see a certain member start damage-controlling what you just posted.
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