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Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #3406
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    Ah, fuck it.

    I didn't even like Gamecube that much but Xbox was not a very well-put-together console. It's a slapped-together PC. In some way, the DC CPU outperformed Xbox off the shelf PIII CPU but not the Gamecube. GCN had a newer GPU. Windwaker was doing tesselation. Gamecube Tev gave it an advantage. Gamecube may have had a slower CPU than Xbox but it did have the best CPU that generation. Xbox had more memory but Gamecubes was faster. Xbox had more raw power but Gamecube was a more efficient system The one thing that held Gamecube back was the discs at a 3rd the space of a standard DVD. Aside from the discs, it's the most well-engineered console of that generation. Gamecube also sold so poorly devs abandoned it by 2004 so few 3rd party games put in the work or cared to released anything on it. RE4 and TP were some of its last showpieces. It and DC were the easiest to work on.

    Half-Life 2 had severe frame rate drops below 20FPS. Doom 3 had some fugly textures and lower poly models than RS2 or 3 maybe even SFA.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post

    Half-Life 2 had severe frame rate drops below 20FPS. Doom 3 had some fugly textures and lower poly models than RS2 or 3 maybe even SFA.
    Those games had high specs the Xbox was the only console that could run them. The Xbox was far from a PC in a Box it had custom hardware and very powerful hardware with and an audio chip that was way ahead of the competition
    If it was just a PC in the Box it would have been a breeze to emu, but even today its emu is far from perfect.

    And we can all cheery pick games, I don't remember Splintercell games look or running better on the Cube or the PS2 to the Xbox versions, which system was able to handle Soulcalibur 2 at 60 FPS at 720P and even now these games still look and run awesome




    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 10-16-2021 at 10:22 AM.
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    xbox vs GameCube


    everyone is free to interpret this data as they wish.


    I don't understand why you are comparing gamecube with xbox I mean, it is known to some that are interested in the theme that the gamecube cannot receive Max Payne in 2001 because lacks main memory to do it.

    http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33601943


    EA Benchmark (may be true because almost all EA games are worse on GC)
    see the reaction of PC enthusiasts, more hardcore people in this ​​benchmarks area

    https://forum.dvdtalk.com/video-game...gcn-vs-pc.html



    Gamecube timeline 2001-2006


    2001: unlike xbox could not Crash bandicoot 2001 at 60 frames even removing graphical features , Dark Alliance same thing 60fps on xbox, maybe 30fps on GC. Dark Summit 2001 xbox native game came later to PS2/GC and couldn't keep the polygonal and textures quality, on ps2 this game is a bit better, a game called 4x4 Evo 2 native xbox and PC came later to ps2 and gamecube, all modified, missing tree shadows and pretty ugly water, PS2 version at least kept shadows, in a game called Spyhunter the gamecube couldn't keep the framerate and efefects as xbox does, 320x240 compressed cutscenes.(Compressed cutscenes and poor audio is a GC default in games).

    2002: jumping to 2002 there was a game called Hitman 2 which the gamecube version is the only one to drop frames to 15fps has there on youtube people measuring the frame rate. SSX Tricky xbox version features Bump mapping the Gamecube doesn't and it's still the worst frame rate among the three versions, V-Rally 3 is 60fps on xbox with excellent graphics, GC version is fixed at 30fps with effects even worse than the PS2 that runs at 45-50 frames, I find it strange that Gamecube's difficulty in dealing with realistic Racing games. F1 2002 Aka F1 2001 in structure, lacking lighting effects, worse audio and 30fps , actually all versions are 30fps but poor audio and lack of effects only on Gamecube this considering only 2001 version because as I said its 2002 is not F1 2002 in physics, effects ect.
    Burnout 2 all versions are 60fps but in the cube the textures are worse and lacks specular effects on models, PS2 and xbox has a game called The Thing game was canceled in GC due to complexity, Wreckless The Yakuza Missions worse on GC among three versions, Star wars Jedi Outcast worse on GC, Shrek 1 absolutely worse in GC is not the same game.

    2003: True crimes LA absolutely worse in GC even than PS2, Freedon Fighters GC there is no shooting physics and several limitations, lack of shadows in some places, Metal Arms xbox is better.

    2004: Max payne 2 how if can not handle MP1, Def Jam FFNY worse frame rate on GC worse lighting effects too, Burnout 3 the console couldn't handle the game even after being programmed in assembly, physics, complexity and models. MK Deception worse image quality, Spiderman 2 lacks motion blur, shadows and it has lower poly count, worse textures too.

    2005: Peter Jackson KG worse on GC, Timesplitters 3 worse too despite being better than ps2, Area 51 couldn't handle the physics GC version was canceled, True Crime NYC absolutely worse in GC.

    2006: SSX on Tour lacks particles, lighting effects, worse frame rate too, PS2 version is almost the same as the xbox version, Tomb Raider Legend xbox runs 60fps on GCN it run 16-24 fps, lacks progresisve scan, character shadows, lighting, full screen blur, snow particles and bloom over it, in a big snow stage, all present in the PS2 version at a solid 30fps. All Need for Speed games are worse than their xbox and ps2 counterparts.

    I didn't put exclusives in the list since it can't run because are exclusives.

    xbox would receive an improved version of Star wars 2 and 3 when the contract with Nintendo expired , later this version was converted internally to be available on the Nintendo wii but it was cancelled there is a video on youtube star wars 2/3 on wii, probably is the xbox version there, in doubt you can compare FarCry on xbox with that on Wii.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 10-16-2021 at 11:31 PM. Reason: grammatical errors

  4. #3409
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    [CENTER][B]
    I don't understand why you are comparing gamecube with xbox I mean, it is known to some that are interested in the theme that the gamecube cannot receive Max Payne in 2001 because lacks main memory to do it.
    SegaAMD you're better than this. We all know it would have been possible any game is possible on a system really (its all about at what cost) If you can G-Loc being made to fit into 64k of memory on the ZX Spectrum you could have had Max Payne on the Cube but with cutbacks. Let's all remember this was also a game that was also meant to coming to the DC at one stage.

    Speaking of Hitman mind, I can't quite remember which Hitman game it was on the PS2, but one of them used the hardware to have an insane amount of characters on screen. I remember being well impressed with the effect at the time, but it was on my mates PS2 and I can't remember which Hitman game it was, sorry

    When it came to the best console graphics of that generation mind. I think you don't get better than this. Some 360 games didn't look this good

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    TA you start from the premise that the Dreamcast's Max Payne would be the same one that was released, well, it's not hard to imagine that it would be just another different game using the name Max Payne

    I feel you downplay Max Payne's technical achievements, on PC game required 96-128MB, devs managed to port to the PS2 using the same engine, downsized the stages, yet the 3D environments have a sense of very large scale, lots of explosion sequences ect

    in fact the game is not prettier than others that came later, I'm not talking about visual beauty here but about technology.

    yeh you is right the devs said they could do port but the game would be very ugly it wouldn't be worth it, it's not just cutting a polygon here and there, the sacrifice would be huge because it involves the structure of the game.

    summary: xbox is very powerful for a huge distance than PS2 due to its 64mb ram and powerful gpu it's not even worth putting xbox here, it really was in another league. Dead or Alive 3 is an xbox launch game and has never been surpassed by any fighting game in 6th generation honestly none come even close, Halo - again a launch game - same situation, Halo has large maps, normal mapping applied to the character, bump mapping applied to the elements, per pixel lighting, vehicles all this consumes a lot of memory to the point of preventing the other console from being able to make a similar game, yes Halo started its development on PS2 but it was canceled and moved to a more powerful platform and modified so that the game prototype on ps2 was just that a conceptual prototype.

  6. #3411
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I'm just saying which game I thought looked the best and the time (being late Christmas 2001) . I had my USA Import XBox with PGR, DOA3 and Halo along with the biggest step-down convertor I had ever seen (still works) and for the US launch of the Cube, I had MonkeyBall and SW RS2. I don't even see you coming into a DC graphical debate when people highlight Soul Soul Calibur as their best looking game with you saying how they can't because it's a simple fighting game (not even multi-level environments) compare to other DC games that are needing to handle far more complex data under the hood.

    Yeah Factor 5 did nice work on the sound, but all us Amiga fans knew that with how they were able to double the number of channels for their Amiga games. All developers making games for launch Hardware would have been having to work in a difficult environment, I thought for the Xbox and Cube most did a really good job, more so given the short time frame between the system launching in Japan or the USA and the there was plenty of skill in making Moneyball (seriously dude, take a minute to proof-read your shit) the mini-games alone were better than most stand-alone games, every thing about that game was so well planned and designed amazing the team only had 4 months. It was for me the best launch game on the Cube and well one of the best launch games ever.
    You need to proofread what you are writing. It's a jumbled mess sometimes, with a ton of grammatical errors.

    You have a bunch of different things all jumbled together, so I just have to interpret WTF you're trying to say, before responding.

    A. I'm certainly not the one that will bring up Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast as the console's best looking game. I never have and never will. I much prefer Street Fighter IIIs beautiful drawn sprites, over the polygong fighters. It's also a shit ton better fighter than Dead or Alive and Soul Calibur, with their button mashing playstyle.

    B. I've never played MonkeyBall (sitting on a copy of SMB Deluxe on PS2), nor do think that it would be anywhere near the best game on the GC. Yeah, it got high praise, but the gameplay certainly looks like it'll get stale pretty quickly. I bought the GameCube for Rogue Squadron II. I would have waited a lot longer to purchase the console, without it. I had no interest in Luigi's Mansion (still don't own it for Cube), or Super Monkey Ball.

    C. Yes, polygon fighting games have the simplest engine of most games. Drop the fighters in front of a background, design added special moves for each player and just cut and paste the rest of the moves to all characters. Yeah, DOA3 has multiple levels in a fight, but it's mostly an illusion hidden by fog and debris as you're dropped onto the next stage.



    You brought up frame dips and any game that gets a dip of 15 to 20 FPS is going to show up and get noticed no matter what frame rate they targeted back then, just play Sega Rally 2 on the DC
    Many games on the Cube and PS2 had frame rate dips that that owned nothing to do with Direct X. It not like Half-Life or Deus X were blazing on the PS2
    I didn't bring up frame dips, I brought of shitty frame-rates. Sega Rally 2 doesn't just have a frame dip, it has massive dips every time you hit the brakes. It literally comes to near a complete stop. The only racing game that I've experienced worse frame drop in is Sega Touring Car on the Saturn. It sucks, because I loved Sega Rally on the Saturn.


    Quote Originally Posted by AMD
    everyone is free to interpret this data as they wish.


    I don't understand why you are comparing gamecube with xbox I mean, it is known to some that are interested in the theme that the gamecube cannot receive Max Payne in 2001 because lacks main memory to do it.
    My interpretation is that every console has issues running a game designed for other hardware. Even the PS2 has issues running ports of Dreamcast games like Grandia II and Crazy Taxi.

    Oh, and Halo certainly didn't begin development on the PS2. It was a game being designed for Apple's Mac and MS approached them about bringing the game to the Xbox.
    Last edited by gamevet; 10-17-2021 at 03:55 PM.
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  7. #3412
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    Conker looked on Par with Star Fox Adventures.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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  8. #3413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    When it came to the best console graphics of that generation mind. I think you don't get better than this. Some 360 games didn't look this good
    I think every xbox exclusive looks great in some way., but the prettiest circles Dead or alive, farcry and unreal championship 2.

    IMO it also has the best graphics in every game genre where there is a native xbox representative.

  9. #3414
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I think every xbox exclusive looks great in some way., but the prettiest circles Dead or alive, farcry and unreal championship 2.

    IMO it also has the best graphics in every game genre where there is a native xbox representative.
    When you get a talented developer looking to make the best use of the console, you're going to get great results no matter the console. It always staggered me how good Killzone 2 looked and still looks, which for me was the best looking game of that generation.
    I will say though that the Xbox didn't have the best graphics in every genre. I still say GT 3/4 looked better than any exclusive Xbox/Cube racer, SEGA GT2002 came close, but I still say GT4 had the better looking car models and while RallySport 2 had stunning background it had not the best car models and Forza didn't look great and only run at a lame 60FPS

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    You need to proofread what you are writing. It's a jumbled mess sometimes, with a ton of grammatical errors.

    You have a bunch of different things all jumbled together, so I just have to interpret WTF you're trying to say, before responding.
    You are also ready to insult, but not so ready to read. Ironic really when you're talking grammar

    A) I never said 'you' said Soul Calibur was the best looking game. I simply said I never seen you wade in when 'people' say Soulcalibur is the best looking DC game or was the best looking launch game and how they can't say that because its just a fighter and one that simply improves over the Arcade version graphics

    B) That just sums you up. Full views and opinions over a game or system. You've never played

    C) I highly doubt you've written a game engine in your life and before you reach to show us all your IT masters. Fighting games, like driving games, were widely used to show off a console or even Arcade Hardware back then, irrespective of how much deep calculations and complex data they were handling, compared to other games or genres.

    Any top AAA game there's a lot of skill that's gone into any game and you act like Factor 5 were didn't also look to build on what they did before with their Star Wars N64 games, no different from how Team Ninja looked to build on what they did before. Even this great sound driver you keep harping on about started on the N64 with Factor 5 Star Wars games.
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 10-18-2021 at 04:54 AM.
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  10. #3415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    When you get a talented developer looking to make the best use of the console, you're going to get great results no matter the console. It always staggered me how good Killzone 2 looked and still looks, which for me was the best looking game of that generation.
    I will say though that the Xbox didn't have the best graphics in every genre. I still say GT 3/4 looked better than any exclusive Xbox/Cube racer, SEGA GT2002 came close, but I still say GT4 had the better looking car models and while RallySport 2 had stunning background it had not the best car models and Forza didn't look great and only run at a lame 60FPS
    in fact I'm going to go further, without getting into this boring polygon count thing, I think what I'm going to say goes for the whole situation where there is a more powerful console and a weaker console, as long as they don't run the same games in the eyes of the public they will appear to have the same power. Exclusive game on the weaker machine, using artistic elements create a very good appearance the more powerful machine would have to have a bigger investment in its games to be able to assert itself. Situations like this abounded in the industry over the generations and benefited weaker consoles.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 10-21-2021 at 12:49 PM.

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    It's never quite so clear cut with the consoles, there's parts of the design that are stronger but also weaker in their design even on the so called most powerful consoles.

    I was always amazed at how good SEGA Arcade games look, when in most cases they're running on not the most powerful PC based hardware.

    It's just nice when you see a developer focus and try it's best on a console and look to use it to the fullest and it's always so much better when it's on a console you happen to like.

    MGS 2 is a great example on the PS2 and Dead Or Alive 2 is a great example on the DC
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 10-21-2021 at 05:21 AM.
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  12. #3417
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post



    You are also ready to insult, but not so ready to read. Ironic really when you're talking grammar.
    Oh, you poor soul.

    www.grammerly.com


    A) I never said 'you' said Soul Calibur was the best looking game. I simply said I never seen you wade in when 'people' say Soulcalibur is the best looking DC game or was the best looking launch game and how they can't say that because its just a fighter and one that simply improves over the Arcade version graphics
    Why would I say that? All of the other consoles were pretty ancient when the Dreamcast launched. There was a 4 year gap between the PlayStation/Saturn hardware and the Dreamcast. Meanwhile, there was only a couple of years gap between Xbox/GC and PS2.

    B) That just sums you up. Full views and opinions over a game or system. You've never played.
    I've owned all 4 consoles from that generation and I've most certainly have played Luigi's Mansion (3DS). And LM turned out to be just what I'd expected it to be. I have a really good idea of weather I'm going to like a game or not. I've played 100s, if not 1000s of them over the decades, so it's not like we're seeing a bunch of fresh new ideas in video games.

    C) I highly doubt you've written a game engine in your life and before you reach to show us all your IT masters. Fighting games, like driving games, were widely used to show off a console or even Arcade Hardware back then, irrespective of how much deep calculations and complex data they were handling, compared to other games or genres.
    Well, you most certainly haven't either dude.

    Consoles launch with fighting games, because they are generally the easiest things to put together and they were quite popular back then. Just look at how many fighting games Capcom was able to churn out for the Saturn, during its short tenure on the market. Capcom could do that, because they already had the AI in place to run those games and Team Ninja already had an AI engine in place for DOA3.

    Any top AAA game there's a lot of skill that's gone into any game and you act like Factor 5 were didn't also look to build on what they did before with their Star Wars N64 games, no different from how Team Ninja looked to build on what they did before. Even this great sound driver you keep harping on about started on the N64 with Factor 5 Star Wars games.
    They created the sound tools for the N64, GameCube and Gameboy Advance. Shit, I was playing the Konami Arcade Advance collection on the GBA this morning. The 1st thing you see is a license for Factor 5's MusyX sound tools.

    Factor 5 had a totally new engine for Rogue Squadron 2. It's not like they could use those low res/poly count models from the N64/PC game. Factor 5 had to create all new models for each ship, including the massive Imperial Battle Cruisers and the Rebel Alliance's large cruisers. Then they had to map out huge areas for the player to fly their ships over. Yeah, let's talk about those Imperial Battle Cruisers. Julian E. stated that just the exhaust ports for those ships took up 100K polygons a second to create, while the characters in DOA3 probably used about 10% of that. You don't have to be a game programmer to see the obvious, that one game takes a hell of a lot more effort to make.

    Team Ninja could easily use the character models they had from DOA2, because it's not like they totally upped the poly count on them for DOA3. The biggest difference was the amazing looking backgrounds, but hardly amazing in comparison to something like the Death Star.
    Last edited by gamevet; 10-21-2021 at 10:44 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  13. #3418
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    gamesvet, I honesty respect your view that RS 2 was the most impressive looking game in 2001, many people I knew at my import shop and it's forum(sadly no more) did too. It was a great as at my import shop you had some saying RS 2 looked the best , a few saying Luigi looked the best, a lot saying Halo was and me the the boss Lee, saying DOA3 was.

    It's silly now but when I saw that sea background with flocks of seagulls, I thought it looked photorealistic and when I 1st saw a player getting thrown out of the window and smashing through the Neon signs,it dropped my jaw; all the more so since 'it reminded me of the amazing stunt in Jackie Chans The Protector. I'm so sure TEAM NINJA loved that stunt too LOL. You make a case for each of those games being the most visually impressive

    Monkey Ball level design is sheer perfection, each and every stage is just perfectly designed and planned, something which you can't say for many games, not even sequels. .It may look like a simple game, but so much skill and planning went into each and every stage.

    I'm not a fan of Naoshi, but to give him credit, it was a Master class in Team/Design & Game management.
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 10-23-2021 at 05:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    My interpretation is that every console has issues running a game designed for other hardware. Even the PS2 has issues running ports of Dreamcast games like Grandia II and Crazy Taxi.

    Oh, and Halo certainly didn't begin development on the PS2. It was a game being designed for Apple's Mac and MS approached them about bringing the game to the Xbox.
    I believe it all comes down to power, these two examples are cheap ports for just extra money, although crazy taxi is not perfect it is virtually the same between versions when using normal 480i cables, it has faster loadings on the PS2 version.
    using vga box the Dreamcast version operates in progressive scan which makes it better, when these ports were made tekken 4 had not been released and therefore progressive scan was not available on the PS2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I believe it all comes down to power, these two examples are cheap ports for just extra money, although crazy taxi is not perfect it is virtually the same between versions when using normal 480i cables, it has faster loadings on the PS2 version.
    using vga box the Dreamcast version operates in progressive scan which makes it better, when these ports were made tekken 4 had not been released and therefore progressive scan was not available on the PS2.
    It's not just about power. Back then with various custom chips you would get a developer putting their heart and soul into a game and look to use every little quirk of the Hardware.

    Xbox was a beast of a console, yet even Silent Hill 2 was far a perfect port, much like how Grandia suffered on the more powerful PS.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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