Quantcast

Page 234 of 237 FirstFirst ... 134184224230231232233234235236237 LastLast
Results 3,496 to 3,510 of 3554

Thread: PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

  1. #3496
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    1999
    Posts
    6,062
    Rep Power
    78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Negative. If you cannot see the difference between my posts and Trekkies' then ban me and delete every single post I have ever made on this group.

    The only thing that gets my goat is fraud and misrepresentation. People shouting out when facts are presented to them on the internet has ruined it completely. I made a very simple point years ago. GamePilgrimage stands by the testimony of the old Internet, before speculation, conjecture and self assertive emotes ruled. Just the same, Sega-16 stands by its misrepresentation of actual products, from actual developers, of games like Golden Axe Beast Rider, Zillion 2 Triformation, and so many more.

    I am lodging a formal complaint against Trekkies. Ban me and delete every single one of my posts please. Only an Admin can do that, or I would have done it years ago.
    This is mental illness. I'm not saying that as an insult but as an observation and from personal experience. Seriously. Get help. You'll feel much better in time and reflect on times saying such things with a new perspective.

    Life?!...What console is that on?

    [PSN] Segata-S //[Switch] FC-SW 3892 5228 2895 //[XBL]Dogi99

    Remake Geist Force!


  2. #3497
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Theres many different benchmarks mentioned to you and you choose to ignore to suit youre narrative.
    wrong, it is precisely the different benchmarks that I approve the more information available, the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    But i guess you do tend to twist things. For example the psp memory thing. Iam sure youre aware it has 34 mb ram including its vram. It has to set aside 8mb for background purpose so it becomes 26 mb ram... same as dc. And here is where things get a little worse for it. After using the 2mb of vram it has for frame buffer and zbuffer its pretty much gone. Leaving the main ram not only for storage but i also imagine using it for stuff like vertex buffer( this holds what is displayed in the frame). Then it stores sound also in there. It just begins chipping away. Memory wise psp and dc are alot close than you thought as you can see. Then not to mention for a long time it was downclocked by 100 mhz. They are alot closer than youd like to admit, all the while the dc seems to be far better at texturing( texture size differences between games ive seen favor dreamcast by huge amount probably due to its 6 to 1 compression).

    On the flip side youre being told the console has done this, heck i told you ive seen dreamcast character model with 90 to 300 bones( anyone who does programming in this field will tell its cpu draining due to the math calculations and seem super suprised the machine is coping so well despite the perceived weakness.
    I'm not an expert but let's see the specs let's define, psp is without a doubt a good way to evaluate what it would be like if the Dreamcast had continued but despite being consoles that run in parallel they are not of the same technology

    PSP specs:
    psp has a cpu can be oerlocked 222 or 333mhz
    34mb memory : 32mb main and 2mb vram
    with 2,6gb/s bandwidth
    resolution: 480x272p
    s3tc
    flops:2,6 Gflops.
    media: 1,8GB

    Dramcast specs
    cpu 200mhz
    26mb total memory 16 main, 2mb audio 8mb vram
    0,8 gb/s bandwidth
    resolution: 640x480p
    vq compression
    flops: 1,4 Gflops
    media: 1,2GB

    on paper the PSP is superior, IMO the games are more beautiful and advanced too, as we can see dreamcast has less gpu power and at the same time runs games at higher resolutions, this puts it at a disadvantage in asset management. To me racing games give the best benchmarks, GT at 60fps and the other racing games are way ahead of what dreamcast produced.

    some psp games look better than ps2 games like Crisis Core; see some psp graphics Daxter, MGS: Portable, Jak, Monster Hunter, MGS: Portable, Final Fantasy: Crisis Core, Motorstorm: Arctic Edge, GTA, Ghost of Sparta, Fifa. Dreamcast is looking a lot more low polygon count in demanding games as F1. I really don't know if what holds the performance of the dreamcast is the cpu or if it's the main memory. But there is a bottleneck in it that prevents visuals like the ones we see in later consoles especially in lighting and large stages.

    well, let's leave this conversation paused, because I'm also interested in seeing the new extractions that you will post it will be interesting after all, the images will bring new life to the theme.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-16-2022 at 11:34 PM.

  3. #3498
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    446
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    If this is your first time in this rodeo be warned, you're probably going to be accused of being an alternate account.


    Actually yes we did, go read the thread again if your memory is fuzzy.


    Ah now you're trying to weasel out by trying to switch the word to limited. You are correct that didn't say limited. You said "hovering around" and made it very clear you thought most 6th gen games were hovering around 1 million polygons per second. The snippet above I posted solidifies that even more as the paragraph goes on to imply that everyone was lying and the other consoles weren't doing more polygons than Dreamcast. That's simply not true.


    You didn't just compliment, you said "This proves I was right." Which is basically restarting the argument.
    Started looking into fzero already. I gotta say it isnt quite what i thought it would be. So far ive only looked at two tracks. Both ranged about 60k triangles. The cars.. have so many duplicates but it seems enemies have 3 lods , so far ive only gotten to look at falcon car. Its around 800 triangles, then drops to about 300 mid and about 160 triangles low. With the driver being about 344 triangles. The playerversion is 1674 triangles hi lod, 301 triangles mid lod , 161 triangles low lod. Driver same as enemy. There also seems to be multiple shells for the embm that gamecube does but nothing too high poly , 720 tris for the highest shell.

    It wasnt at all high poly as i thought it would be .it actually reminds how daytona 2001 on the dreamcast was , multiple lods for the cars and even a shell for decals. With a hi polytrack.

  4. #3499
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    446
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    wrong, it is precisely the different benchmarks that I approve the more information available, the better.



    I'm not an expert but let's see the specs let's define, psp is without a doubt a good way to evaluate what it would be like if the Dreamcast had continued but despite being consoles that run in parallel they are not of the same technology

    PSP specs:
    psp has a cpu can be oerlocked
    34mb memory : 32mb main and 2mb vram
    with 2,6gb/s bandwidth
    resolution: 480x272p
    s3tc
    flops:2,6 Gflops.
    media: 1,8GB

    Dramcast specs
    cpu 200mhz
    26mb total memory 16 main, 2mb audio 8mb vram
    0,8 gb/s bandwidth
    resolution: 640x480p
    vq compression
    flops: 1,4 Gflops
    media: 1,2GB

    on paper the PSP is superior, IMO the games are more beautiful and advanced too, GT at 60fps and the other racing games are way ahead of what dreamcast produced. To me racing games give the best benchmarks.

    Daxter, MGS: Portable, Jak, Monster Hunter, MGS: Portable, Final Fantasy: Crisis Core, Motorstorm: Arctic Edge, GTA, Ghost of Sparta, Fifa. Dreamcast is looking a lot more low polygon count in demanding games as F1. I really don't know if what holds the performance of the dreamcast is the cpu or if it's the main memory. But there is a bottleneck in it that prevents visuals like the ones we see in later consoles especially in lighting.
    And most of the games you posted i extracted, ive seen the assets. Polygon count , texture sizes, bone counts. You get fooled by good art styles. Crisis core, metal gear solid peace keeper have main characters that are around 1300 to 1600 triangles. Enemies around 1200 to 1400 triangles. Stages around 20k triangles. Count in birth by sleep in exactly the same stats. They fall in line with illbleed kind of specs . Heck illbleed might even outdo them to some extent because it aims for 60 fps. While peacewalker 20 fps and the rest pretty much 30 fps. I posted these infos on the net, just havent posted here is all.

    Psp was wise use of resources. Alot of lighting was even faked using vertex color! Something they didnt even bother doing on the dreamcast. ( soul reaver 2 was going to use it effectively like psp but you know what happened) .

  5. #3500
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Age
    34
    Posts
    8,541
    Rep Power
    145

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo View Post
    Started looking into fzero already. I gotta say it isnt quite what i thought it would be. So far ive only looked at two tracks. Both ranged about 60k triangles. The cars.. have so many duplicates but it seems enemies have 3 lods , so far ive only gotten to look at falcon car. Its around 800 triangles, then drops to about 300 mid and about 160 triangles low. With the driver being about 344 triangles. The playerversion is 1674 triangles hi lod, 301 triangles mid lod , 161 triangles low lod. Driver same as enemy. There also seems to be multiple shells for the embm that gamecube does but nothing too high poly , 720 tris for the highest shell.

    It wasnt at all high poly as i thought it would be .it actually reminds how daytona 2001 on the dreamcast was , multiple lods for the cars and even a shell for decals. With a hi polytrack.
    So what do the actual track models look like? Reason being I noticed on sites that had them extracted the tracks just seemed to be the actual road, but the scenery seemed to be separate. So I'm curious how they're actually stored and what's all included.

    The panning demos showing off the track seem to be what has the highest polygon counts in F-Zero GX from what Dolphin is showing:



    So I'm curious if the models your extracting have all that or if they're all separate pieces that need to be combined. The specific track from those shots:

    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-17-2022 at 12:29 AM.

  6. #3501
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    446
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    So what do the actual track models look like? Reason being I noticed on sites that had them extracted the tracks just seemed to be the actual road, but the scenery seemed to be separate. So I'm curious how they're actually stored and what's all included.

    The panning demos showing off the track seem to be what has the highest polygon counts in F-Zero GX from what Dolphin is showing:



    So I'm curious if the models your extracting have all that or if they're all separate pieces that need to be combined. The specific track from those shots:

    I guess its the track with most of the background. Pretty dense. Skybox not present so i am guessing its stored elsewhere due to tracks having more than 1 setting. Though it seems not all tracks are like that

  7. #3502
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Age
    34
    Posts
    8,541
    Rep Power
    145

    Default

    So when you say background do you mean all the stuff like the buildings around the track? From what I'm seeing it seems there's a lot of models being copy pasted all around the track.

    EDIT:
    Digging more into the models on modeler's resource, it looks like some tracks do have everything, and others are separate pieces with a bunch of model copy pasting. When I look at the ones that seem to have everything included, like Lightning Loop Cross, I get polygon counts around the 40kish in dolphin when it's a zoomed out shot showing most of the map in the demo sequence. Which the entire model seems to be around 55k, so that count doesn't seem that far off. During gameplay I'm getting around 35-65k polygons per frame depending on how busy screen is. Sometimes on really busy maps with a ton of copy pasting like Mute City, or the Casino one it will jump up to about 75k at points where the draw distance gets very far and you can see a ton of stuff and there's a lot of cars in front of you.

    I'm wondering if during these demo sequences if the game is just using all the high detail LOD models since it doesn't have to do any other kind of game logic. Some of those basic models in Mute City for example are about 1500-3000 polygons each, more complex ones are about 4000-6000, with a bunch of other layers of detail drawn over top of them. If those are copy pasted a bunch of times I could see how the game could get up to some of those really high polygon counts during those sequences.

    EDIT2:
    For kicks and giggles I took a look at Rogue Squadron 2's models. If this is to be trusted these are some pretty high detail models. This here is the X-Wing model:



    This model also includes the pilot in the cockpit. Combined the model comes to 33k Polygons. The Pilot accounts for about 4.5K of that.


    A-Wing = ~18k
    B-Wing = ~16k
    Y-Wing = ~19k
    Millennium Falcon (no pilot) = ~13k
    Tie Fighter (No Pilot) = ~28k

    I remember years ago I was getting well over 100k Polygons per frame when looking around in the hangar with a bunch of ships in frame, which with counts like this that doesn't really surprise me at this point.
    Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118; 08-17-2022 at 02:05 AM.

  8. #3503
    Hero of Algol
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,292
    Rep Power
    199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Negative. If you cannot see the difference between my posts and Trekkies' then ban me and delete every single post I have ever made on this group. Just the same, Sega-16 stands by its misrepresentation of actual products, from actual developers, of games like Golden Axe Beast Rider, Zillion 2 Triformation, and so many more.

    I am lodging a formal complaint against Trekkies. Ban me and delete every single one of my posts please. Only an Admin can do that, or I would have done it years ago.
    You're a deranged individual who only came back to attack Trekkies, other people who exposed your lies years ago and the forum itself.
    Sadly, 8 years in hiding weren't enough for you to get any better. You keep trying to victimize yourself while cowardly attacking the forum and those who dared to expose your absolutely crazy bullshit.
    Do yourself a favor and go back to the cave you were in the last 8 years. You clearly need some more time in there.

    And, please, seek professional help. You really need it.
    Last edited by Barone; 08-17-2022 at 04:25 AM.

  9. #3504
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    446
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    So when you say background do you mean all the stuff like the buildings around the track? From what I'm seeing it seems there's a lot of models being copy pasted all around the track.

    EDIT:
    Digging more into the models on modeler's resource, it looks like some tracks do have everything, and others are separate pieces with a bunch of model copy pasting. When I look at the ones that seem to have everything included, like Lightning Loop Cross, I get polygon counts around the 40kish in dolphin when it's a zoomed out shot showing most of the map in the demo sequence. Which the entire model seems to be around 55k, so that count doesn't seem that far off. During gameplay I'm getting around 35-65k polygons per frame depending on how busy screen is. Sometimes on really busy maps with a ton of copy pasting like Mute City, or the Casino one it will jump up to about 75k at points where the draw distance gets very far and you can see a ton of stuff and there's a lot of cars in front of you.

    I'm wondering if during these demo sequences if the game is just using all the high detail LOD models since it doesn't have to do any other kind of game logic. Some of those basic models in Mute City for example are about 1500-3000 polygons each, more complex ones are about 4000-6000, with a bunch of other layers of detail drawn over top of them. If those are copy pasted a bunch of times I could see how the game could get up to some of those really high polygon counts during those sequences.

    EDIT2:
    For kicks and giggles I took a look at Rogue Squadron 2's models. If this is to be trusted these are some pretty high detail models. This here is the X-Wing model:



    This model also includes the pilot in the cockpit. Combined the model comes to 33k Polygons. The Pilot accounts for about 4.5K of that.


    A-Wing = ~18k
    B-Wing = ~16k
    Y-Wing = ~19k
    Millennium Falcon (no pilot) = ~13k
    Tie Fighter (No Pilot) = ~28k

    I remember years ago I was getting well over 100k Polygons per frame when looking around in the hangar with a bunch of ships in frame, which with counts like this that doesn't really surprise me at this point.
    Probably those extracted models you found for fzero are correct. The completed tracks do seem to be around 60 to almost 70k triangles. The driver models that are actually in the car are super low, block hands , no detail , no legs. I think when its all counted up with the car + environment map shell + driver player car ranges from 2k to 3k triangles. While the enemy car is 2k or less up close and even less in the distance considering the mid and low lod models have a huge drop off in polygon count. Keeping in mind that it probably doesnt zoom out 100% of the track make me suspicious of the emulator number displayed. The assets just doesnt point to that high of a count even under stress. Maybe the emulator is counting something else like multiple passes.

  10. #3505
    Underground Sega Nut BonusKun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,079
    Rep Power
    81

    Alex Kidd

    K Since Baloo is already here watching things I'll try & let him deal with it. All I ask is some of you guys relax a little even if you're not agreeing with each other.

    However, If I have to step into this thread to deal with something, It's going to be a steel toe boot up someone's ass.
    05/05/15

  11. #3506
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    9

    Default

    Later try see Powerdrome (xbox/ps2) assets i'm curious it was the Argonaut Sheffield's final game developed as they would shut down in October of 2004

  12. #3507
    The Gentleman Thief Baloo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    5,888
    Rep Power
    105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Negative. If you cannot see the difference between my posts and Trekkies' then ban me and delete every single post I have ever made on this group.

    The only thing that gets my goat is fraud and misrepresentation. People shouting out when facts are presented to them on the internet has ruined it completely. I made a very simple point years ago. GamePilgrimage stands by the testimony of the old Internet, before speculation, conjecture and self assertive emotes ruled. Just the same, Sega-16 stands by its misrepresentation of actual products, from actual developers, of games like Golden Axe Beast Rider, Zillion 2 Triformation, and so many more.

    I am lodging a formal complaint against Trekkies. Ban me and delete every single one of my posts please. Only an Admin can do that, or I would have done it years ago.
    Fine, if you wish to act this way after a warning to not disrupt a topic and insisting you just let things go, enjoy two weeks off. I have no idea what self-misrepresentation you're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    The Sega Saturn was God's gift to humanity. This is inarguable fact!



    Feedback Thread: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...ack&highlight=

  13. #3508
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    446
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Soul Reaver 2 - PC/windows - Revisited.
    Decided to revisit soul reaver 2 pc to compare if the earlier development shots that were from the dreamcast version show difference in the models of the level. To my surprise it seems mostly unchanged if not completely unchanged geometry wise. While the baked in vertex colors are darker in the finished game than the screenshots they still match where the fake lighting is. Seems nixxes was getting good perf out of dc.

    air forge lion snake room- 67,429 triangles



    air forge stone gap - 31,345 triangles



    air forge head room - 11,250 triangles



    spectral realm airforge - 38,563 triangles



    Final Dreamcast shot with update player model in dark forge - 38,660 triangles


  14. #3509
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,800
    Rep Power
    101

    Default

    I have no idea what self-misrepresentation you're talking about.
    That's why he's bringing it up. This is the least effective conflict resolution I have ever seen.

  15. #3510
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    9

    Default

    what are the numbers polygon per frame and main character in game (only this two data).
    in normal game situation. just to compile.

    Sonic 1: 30fps
    Sonic 2: ~60fps
    ill bleed:
    Shenmue 2: 30fps
    shadow Man:
    Rayman 2: 60fps
    blue stinger 30fps:
    Swords Berserk :
    red dog:
    Fur fighters:
    MDK2:
    Soul reaver: 60fps, about 1000 poly main character
    ecco the dolphin:
    Max steel:
    Head hunter:
    evil twin:
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-18-2022 at 12:58 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •