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Thread: Can Sega-16 Beat the Last of the Genesis, Sega CD, & 32X Libraries in 2018

  1. #736
    SITE SUPERVILLAIN Outrunner Vector's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great info bro.
    My Feedback : http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...orman-feedback
    My Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKAhCCdRxXo
    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Is this guy the new forum villain? LOL
    They called me Mr. Glass =)

  2. #737
    Hero of Algol
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenHigh View Post
    I don't understand these 16-bit racing sims. I tried the Nigel Mansell game and the Ferrari game. You can't play them realistically by actually using brakes and anticipating turns. The CPU guys leave you in the dust. You can't just hold the accelerator down or you slide off the road and run into signs. The tracks are so narrow compared to the gigantic cars making it hard to pass other cars.
    They're no more than Pole Position clones with bells and whistles. Did anyone get a 16-bit racing sim right or even semi-right?
    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenHigh View Post
    I'm taking this as a friendly joke. But I assume everyone is an adult here and not delusional. And I assume people like videogames, period. My favorite game system is clear. But discovering some odd overlooked 16-bit game like Nigel Mansell on Super NES is great. I would've never fired the game up otherwise.
    If anyone wants to get all serious and get mad at me over old videogames, then they can have fun with that by themselves.
    I'm trying with these leftovers but you can only scrape the bottom in small chunks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bones Justice View Post
    Virtua Racing, Kawasaki Superbikes, and F1 are good.
    Let me be honest and stubborn here: none of those games are racing simulators.
    They vary from pure arcade to arcade with some simulation elements but they're very, very far form being racing simulators.

    Fastest 1 is a true racing simulator, let me quote this old post of mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Well, at first Fastest 1 looks like a SMS game with only 30% of screen dedicated to the gameplay area. Almost no trackside objects. All menus and text seems to be in English, but they are in Engrish... The Championship mode is confusing at first, doesn't allow you to select all teams/cars and you'll NOT race if you fail to qualify and will be obligated to WATCH the full race. Steering options are hard to understand and will probably make you set it wrong and you'll have a hard time trying to make the car stay on the track.
    All that explains the USD0.01 quotation.

    The game engine is superb. Actually an improved and upgraded version of F1 Triple Battle for the PCE. They look identical at first, but they aren't... Several details were improved/included for the MD version.
    You have:
    -Realistic weather (with much better effects than on the PCE version).
    -Realistic track course (very closed turns like you'll hardly find in any other racing game using line scrolling) (elevation changes are very very close to the real tracks) (scrolling is significantly smoother than on the PCE).
    -Realistic tire grip & consumption (for each tire compound you have really different grip and durability) (all the F1 drama is here when your tires get worn at the end of the race and you don't have enough advantage to do a pit stop and return in the same position; the car gets REALLY difficult to drive in extreme situations) (the grip reducing is not exactly linear, very realistic) (your driving style and car setup directly influences the tire consumption).
    -Different handling and aerodynamic efficiency for each team's cars.
    -Each engine model has the exactly same horsepower that it had in the real F1.
    -Each engine sounds a bit different.
    -Each team has an "organization" grade which means that the pit-stop time varies (randomly) inside a specific range. Like: "A"== 7.0-8.5 seconds for a tire changing pit-stop. "C" == 8.5-9.5 seconds; something like that.
    -Championship mode is actually a career mode and you'll only be able to move to better team in the next season if you did very well in the last one. You'll be evaluated not only in terms of championship points but in other stuff like "Number of Poles" "Number of finished races" "Number of wins" "Number of successful qualifyings"...
    -The tracks have almost no trackside objects (this look horrible in places like Monaco) but the background layer on the horizon is a small but detailed image representing the landscape of the real circuits. Example: in Imola you'll see some small houses in a forest with a unique design; exactly like the ones that surround the real track in those years.
    -Each team has a different painting on the cars, unlike in Senna's SMGPII.
    -The car animation is neat and the opponents' cars have as much details as yours.
    -Very simple graphics but no flickering and slowdown.

    The engine noise isn't great but it is surely much less annoying than on Senna's game.
    Controls are MUCH better and really perfect IMO. You have to use always the first steering option ("I.A.S." or something like that) when you are still learning how to control the car. It's like a automatically progressive steering, so you have to break before the turns or you'll get out off the track all the time. The other options are for "advanced" driving. You can steer as much as you want, but if you do it wrongly the car will spin off the track. This mode is much harder to use and was, indeed, developed to use with the XE-1AP analog stick controller that this game supports (Senna's also supports it but it doesn't change much
    your driving).
    My hint to qualify is: select the car with better horse power/handling pair that you can get at first, than train using the "free run" mode until you feel that you can easily finish a lap without mistakes. Qualify and go to the race. You'll love the game after 2 races. You won't miss Senna's anymore.

    The Engrish is really bad and the menus have some stupid navigation mechanism. I have a hack on the way for this game, 80% of the text is already corrected and using the real names of teams, drivers, engines... I might release a version in the next few weeks. But the original version is totally playable once you have tried the menus and learned what they really mean (the Engrish can leads you to some very wrong assumptions).
    Racing is a genre that really shone in the 5th and 6th generations. Most of 4th gen racing games are very limited, unrealistic and simplistic gameplay wise; many of them being just glorified 3rd gen-standard game engines with 4th gen graphics.

    The Mega Drive racing library isn't that great IMO but it has some good/great exceptions:
    Fastest 1 (1991) -> In terms of simulation, I don't think there's a better game for any of 4th gen consoles. It's an improved version of PCE's F1 Triple Battle.
    Super Hang-On (1989) -> Aside of the slowdown and digital controls, the gameplay is 1:1 with the original arcade game. Its engine relies heavily on 32-bit calculation for precise movement and timing. If you run a segment on the inside of the curves, your time will a few milliseconds better than if you had run on the outside; it's a characteristic that most racing games of the time lacked due to simplified calcs. You can also run around trackside objects, another rare feature for racing engines of the time. The collision with CPU bikes will also result in different outcomes depending on your speed differential, bike inclination, etc. Classic Yu Suzuki: arcade with some simulation elements.
    Virtua Racing (1994) -> Probably the best AI you'll find in any 4th gen console racing game. Its AI has some characteristics which stand out even when compared to well respected simulators such as Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 2 (1996): aggressiveness, good overtaking maneuvers and varied racing lines.

    There's also Formula One World Championship: Beyond the Limit (1994) for the Sega CD, which is pretty much the other side of the coin when compared to Fastest 1: the presentation is superb, but its gameplay rules aren't nowhere near as consistent. The default setup in the US version is completely screwed and gave the game a bad reputation, but you can work around it by changing the car setup. The AI is nowhere near as good as in Virtual Racing; but the tracks have lots of details capture from the real ones, the season mode is amazing in terms of F1-specific details, pretty much a career simulator as well.
    Another ancient quote here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    One thing about this game that people seem to ignore is that it has the course maps and especially the turns much closer to the real ones than any other 16-bit F1 game that I know.
    You can take Super Monaco GP, Ayrton Senna's Super Monaco GP II, Formula One (by Domark), Nigel Mansell's World Championship Racing (SNES), Nigel Mansell's World Championship Racing (Genesis)... All of them use similar graphic tricks and controls. You'll never see a really L turn in that games like you can see in F1 Beyond the Limit. And for such reason all of those games use a very slow "linear" handling control. You can push left or right really strong and your car will take some time to reach the maximum steering. In F1 Beyond the Limit it had to be different since you need to do L turns, real chicanes... Things that require a fast steering at its maximum level.
    However, IMO they set the default values/setup for steering and handling way too high, so it gets too sensible and, even worse, too strong steering.
    You'll see my settings in the following videos and how they change both maximum steering level and delay to reach such level in order to set a more reasonable control pattern.
    IMO this game would have been perfect for an analog stick or steering well but we don't have such option.

    Regarding the controller model and considering what I said above, this game is more sensitive to the controller you're using than any other 16-bit F1 game; so you need to choose wisely.

    The steering and handling settings do make a lot of difference.
    I struggle much more with the default settings.
    I prepared two videos just to show you the difference. I did a free run at Silverstone, using one lap for warm-up and a second one trying to push the car.
    I have not drive at this course in the last 10 years and I just drove for like 10 laps before recording the videos.

    I think you should get this game, yes. And just give it a proper chance and use exactly the concept that you already said in other thread: try to memorize each part of the track you're running at. For such reason, I recommend you to do full practice and qualifying sessions before the race. It will give you like 20-30 laps of experience and might be enough to get used to the track and controls.

    Free run at Silverstone using default car setup:

    Free run at Silverstone using custom car setup:

    See the difference? Pay attention to how "strong" are even the very slight d-pad slaps in the first video and how much "strong" the steering gets in its maximum level. Then compare with the second video.

    And now compare with the Senna's qualifying lap at Silverstone in 1993:

  3. #738
    Bring on the noise! WCPO Agent Bones Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Let me be honest and stubborn here: none of those games are racing simulators.
    Yes, you are right, of course. He called them racing sims but his main complaint seemed to be with the controls. In that part, I agree with him that those games do not drive like real cars; the ones I suggested can, at least more than the ones he's talking about.

    I wish I could try Fastest 1. It sounds interesting.

    Kawasaki Superbikes seems a lot more like riding a motorbike than Super Hang-On to me. Leaning the bike in Super just doesn't feel right to me.

    One of the best racing simulators I ever played was Revs+ on the Commodore 64. The driving was very detailed, you even had to use the clutch. It seems like it could have been made on Sega Genesis and probably would have run faster, too. I played that game a lot but I sold my C64 for money to buy a Genesis.
    Slayer-1: "Minus 210 degrees...minus 215...minus 220. Why are you still standing?"

    Bones: "My will...will not die."


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  7. #742
    Hero of Algol
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    Talking Nigel Mansell's World Championship Racing (Full Season) (Professional) (4/5)

    Ending animation:
    Last edited by Barone; 01-27-2018 at 09:13 PM.

  8. #743
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    Talking Nigel Mansell's World Championship Racing (Full Season) (Professional) (5/5)

    About the game
    This is an arcade-style F1 game where you assume the role of a Williams driver with very few simulation elements such as tire consumption and simplified car setup options.
    Despite being released in the end of 1993, its content is actually based on the 1992 FIA Formula One World Championship.

    Keep in mind that there are version differences between the European and US versions. The latter seems to have received a few improvements compared to the European one, such as slightly better sound effects and removed track side objects which could only belong to the Lotus universe (like big rocks).

    Technical overview
    The Lotus game engine was used here and it seems to be the same revision which which originated the Genesis port of Top Gear 2.
    The frame rate is solid at 30 fps (track and objects) and the scrolling speed is high, providing a good speed sensation.

    Color use is very poor throughout the game; giving it a very washed out and outdated look. Many details are also lost due to repeated palette choices.
    The track side is sparse and the objects are average/small-sized.
    The animation is also sparse but gets the job done.
    The weather effects are also poor.

    The music is presented in mono and low quality.
    The sound effects are poor and there aren't many of them.

    The grid only has 12 cars instead of 26.
    AI is capable of overtaking and using alternate racing lines.

    Bugs and inconsistencies
    I've found several issues with this game which all reviews from the magazines of the time and the awful review written for Sega-16 seem to ignore (I think it speaks volumes about how much they actually played the game):
    - The manual transmission is mostly broken (both US and EU versions) since you may need four or five tries to change the gear at times.
    - The password system is buggy/broken. It simply gave me invalid codes to save my progress.
    - The car setup has some glaring problems: A) the soft tire compound has less grip than the hard one which is completely nonsense, even more when you consider that the hard compound also lasts longer, which means that it's completely useless; B) the wet tires also don't seem to be necessary at all, I've beaten the game using hard compound tires even under wet conditions; B) the gear options seem to be reversed compared to what is the norm in racing: high (gear ratio) should give you more acceleration with the cost of final speed reduction, but it's the opposite in this game.
    - Sometimes it's possible to literally pass through the AI cars; it's not a common occurrence but it happens at times. And it's also possible to see the AI cars passing through themselves at times as well.
    - Some sprite priority issues, specially when you have two or three AI cars in your view. A car may appear to be ahead when it's actually behind the other one and vice-versa.
    - It seems to be impossible to secure the pole position, even when your lap time is several seconds faster than the original track record. The best starting position I could get was third place.
    - The leader car (which is almost always your main rival in the championship) doesn't seem to ever need to enter in the pits, while you and several of the other AI cars do need to do it no matter what. Even using hard tires and a very conservative driving it's just impossible to complete a race without changing the tires.

    Even with all its issues, I still had a good time with this game.
    And that's possible thanks to a few factors:
    - The steering responsiveness is very good, so the car reacts quickly to your commands.
    - The AI is tough but it's beatable in the race. And it's smart enough to try to block you.
    - The speed sensation is very good.
    - The collision mechanics with track side objects is precise and well adjusted for fast arcade driving.
    - The overtakes are mostly possible in curves and it's really challenging but fun to keep driving on the limit and using alternate racing lines to complete them.
    - While unrealistic (the elevation changes are especially exaggerated; curves are of higher speed than in reality for the most part), the tracks do test your skills.
    - The car handling allows skidding and, ultimately, spins; so you're forced to develop your handling skills as well.

    Comparison with the SNES version
    General changes:
    - In the MD version it's possible to abandon races without abandon the championship. In the SNES', when you retire from a race you automatically retire from the championship.
    - MD version uses third-person view instead of first-person view.
    - Track side collision detection is more precise on the MD and it also has several degrees of deceleration. On the SNES, every hit means a major speed reduction and some hits are detected even when you're still inside the track limits; which means that the striped track extensions are pretty much useless.
    - The steering speed is much quicker on the MD. The SNES version uses a different steering model which will only give you full steering to either side after a second or so.
    The model used by the SNES version is better suited for a more simulation oriented game but IMHO it would require proper steering adjustment options (as you can find in Formula One World Championship: Beyond the Limit) to work well. Also, in the SNES version the wing adjustment will mostly impact how much the car steers when it reaches full steering; so when you're using high downforce setup, the car tends to overreact when turning.

    Lost features:
    - Sectorized timing which provides you the difference to the car ahead.
    - Randomized weather: in the MD version, each track has a hardcoded, pre-defined weather.
    - Manual down-shifting - beyond its responsiveness issues - is not properly implemented in the MD version. It instantaneously reduces to the car speed to the maximum speed of the target gear; while the correct approach - which is the one used by the SNES version - would be to apply a delayed speed reduction with proper revs variation.
    - Several sound effects but especially the AI cars' engine noise, which is crucial for gameplay immersion and also helps you to notice when a car is about to overtake you.
    - In race, all AI cars have the same color palette. This a major downgrade when compared to the SNES version where you actually can distinguish your opponents.
    - In race lap counter doesn't show the total laps of the race.
    - The different weather conditions doesn't seem to affect the tire grip as they do in the SNES version.
    - Pits entrance is noticeably simplified.

    How to beat the game
    - Always use the following setup: high downforce, hard tires, high gear, automatic transmission.
    - There's no need to use brakes. Just lift acceleration in the entrance of the closer turns while always searching to use/be near to the striped track extensions on the inside and then keep tapping the gas button to adjust your speed.
    - Continued skidding always results in spins, so make minimal use of it.
    - Try to drible AI cars in order to make overtaking easier: when you're approaching, choose the line you don't want to use, let the AI car change to it to try to block you, them quickly change to other racing line and go for it.
    - Most of the time, it's better to reduce your pace if you feel you don't have enough space to overtake. Inside curves, you can try to increase the pace just near the end of the curves sequence and then overtake the AI car using your straight speed. Track segments which have several short/quick turns are troublesome for overtaking, so pick your spots.
    - Plan your pitstop according to your track position: if you're stuck in the middle of two, three cars; it's better to stop, change tires and then reach them again when they'll probably be more distant from each other in the track.
    - Never change tires after the first lap; it may force you to stop a second time in the end of the race and it will ruin your chances.
    - Tire consumption increases with skidding, spins, collisions and the use of off-the-limits track segments.
    - It's possible to win races starting last (I did it several times in my run 'cause I had to beat in a single playing session and thus I skipped several qualifying sessions to save time) but the traffic up until the 6th place can easily ruin your race, especially in the slower tracks where overtaking is more difficult.
    Last edited by Barone; 01-28-2018 at 07:44 PM.

  9. #744
    Raging in the Streets goldenband's Avatar
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    ^Awesome, Barone! Congrats on the win. Looking forward to reading your comments.

  10. #745
    Hero of Algol
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    Comments provided!

  11. #746
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One RvR's Avatar
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    Congrats Barone, you are the speed king!

  12. #747
    Blast processor Melf's Avatar
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    Barone, could you reduce those images a bit? They practically shut down my PC at work, lol.

  13. #748
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    Sorry, I will post less images for the next game.

    EDIT: Try now.
    Last edited by Barone; 01-29-2018 at 07:51 PM.

  14. #749
    Master of Shinobi Bottino's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Great job man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Thanks for the detailed write-up, it's almost like a small FAQ.

    From what I could deduce from your observations, it seems that Nigel Mansell appears to be a more interesting racing experience than MD's Top Gear 2 at least.

    A shame that the MD version ( despite having it's own merits ) is somewhat degraded when compared to it's Super NES counterparts.

  15. #750
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    Default Ferrari Grand Prix Challenge (GP World Championship) & F-1 Hero MD (Grand Prix Mode)

    Thanks for the kind messages, guys. I'll answer you properly later on.

    After 64 races (rank D, C, B, A; with 16 races each) you're supposed to finish the game but not really:

    Beaten after 80 races of 10 laps each (I'm not kidding):

    Yes, the localization corrupted the ending, YES!

    Then I translated the password from one character set to another (more details to come later but the passwords aren't interchangeable at first) and played the SA rank (final rank with the same cars and drivers of rank A but with tougher AI) again but in the far superior original Japanese game (for a grand total of 96 races):

    Nowhere in the whole Internet these games have been beaten without cheats before (actually, I don't think there's any footage of the endings); I'll come back with a ton of details and undocumented information later today.

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