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Thread: GUIDE: How to tell if your TV supports 240P over Component

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    Turricanator Wildside Expert SwampFox56's Avatar
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    Default GUIDE: How to tell if your TV supports 240P over Component

    Okay guys, this has gotten ridiculous - so I thought I'd clear it up once and for all.

    The 240P Problem:
    The History and Technical Mumbo Jumbo

    I will try to explain this somewhat funky topic, as clearly as possible. Throughout the following page, I assume we're dealing with North American or Japanese signaling (NTSC), but when dealing with PAL content the numbers are the only things that really change.




    Older video games and computer systems output video signals that don't completely conform to normal video timing standards. Back in the day, this was not a problem because the video signals directly drove the CRT in your television. CRT televisions were designed for interlaced content at 30fps (frames per second). This meant that the TV displayed half the picture (called a "field") at 60 times a second and the other half (another field) also at 60 times a second. This results in a full picture 30 times a second (hence, 30fps). A CRT draws a picture line-by-line from left-to-right and then top-to-bottom. The fields are drawn in such a way where the odd-numbered lines are drawn (evens are skipped), and once the bottom of the screen is reached it begins from the top again, but this time drawing the even-numbered lines (odds are now skipped). This processes is repeated, and it's quick enough that our eyes don't notice the rapid flickering to a certain extent.

    So the lines are drawn in a kind of alternating fashion and there's a special timing signal sent with the video content to tell the CRT to do this alternation. A full picture is considered to be consisting of about 480 lines, so we call this 480i (i = interlaced). However, the fluid motion desired in video games requires a faster framerate of 60fps. Older game consoles also don't have the technical capabilities of generating a full 480 line picture. The solution is to assume that a standard interlaced half picture (480 divided by 2 = 240) is a full picture, and simply display this picture at a normal field-rate of 60 times per second. This means that the other field and its entire set of lines are completely ignored. To accomplish this, the "special timing signal" mentioned above is slightly changed to tell the CRT to not alternate between its odd and even lines. Nintendo's name for this type of scanning is "double-strike", because the same set of lines are drawn twice within one scanning cycle while the lines that would normally be drawn in-between them are absent (or not "struck" at all). The more common term used for this type of signalling is "240p" (p = progressive). Another name for progressive is "non-interlaced".

    The Main Problem

    The input stages in some newer non-CRT TVs & monitors were not properly designed and do not accept 240p timing signals over the component video connection (deemed "240p over component"). A very common example of "240p over component" is playing Playstation 1 games on a Playstation 2 which is hooked up with a component cable. This setup on a poorly designed TV will result in no picture on the display when the Playstation 1 game launches. However, based on new trends in how TVs are designed, we believe that this type of problem is becoming increasingly rare with newer sets (***technical explanation below***). Regardless, those who purchase our products should be aware that our cables may be incompatible with certain TV sets.


    An example of 240p incompatibility: Playstation 1 game launching on a Playstation 2 connected with component cables.


    The Other Problem

    Even when HDTVs are capable of accepting a 240p component video signal, they might not process it correctly for display. This can result in visual artifacts appearing on the screen during rapid motion. As described above, 240p content is displayed at 60fps. Computer generated content, such as video games, utilize this capability to their fullest by rapidly changing parts of the screen every single frame, usually to convey a message to the player. A common example is your character "getting hit" or "taking damage". In many games, this causes your character to flash on and off rapidly at the 60fps rate.
    240p video signals are electrically equivalent to 480i signals, except for that special timing signal described above. Because of this, improperly designed TVs can misinterpret 240p signals as 480i signals. This results in the 240p signal running through a processing path which it wasn't meant for. Assuming a 60fps flashing object, several different things can happen as a consequence:

    1. Every other frame, the even frames (arbitrarily), are completely dropped so the object appears solid.
    2. The other set of frames, the odd frames, are completely dropped so the object has disappeared.
    3. The frames are merged and the object appears combed.
    4. The object is processed correctly.



    1.) Flashing object appears solid.






    3.) Flashing object is combed.







    2.) Flashing object has disappeared.






    4.) Flashing object is processed correctly.

    These are common issues with modern TVs in general, and they extend beyond just component inputs. During our testing, in most cases when a TV incorrectly processes a 240p component signal, it also does so for the composite and s-video inputs. Like anything in the real world, there are exceptions to this. In fact, we have seen TVs where 240p component is processed correctly, while 240p composite is not. The reverse has also been witnessed. We'd like to make clear that there are issues with this type of technology and it can't be universally generalized. It's also possible that the above issues (when present) might not bother you or be noticeable to you at all. Everyone's mileage will vary.


    ***Additional Info***

    We believe that the incompatibility issue is due to separate processing paths between the composite/s-video and component inputs. Designers who are familiar with video decoder ICs (integrated circuits) on TV front-end systems know that, during a certain time frame, most of the affordable ICs only had composite and s-video input support. So a cost-effective TV would have its composite & s-video inputs processed by the IC, while the component inputs would bypass the chip and most likely feed directly into a CPU or other logic IC running some simple custom decoder (decoding Y'PbPr to R'G'B' is seemingly very simple). Not all manufacturers properly implemented this decoding, neglecting the fact that there are several possible syncing formats. However, in the present time, the most common ICs for the task are these "total video front-end" chips (example here), which handle everything coming from all inputs on the set. It is our opinion that, for this very reason of having a single streamlined processing path, the "240p over component" incompatibility issue is disappearing with newer TVs. Since the composite and component inputs share the same processing path, a 240p composite signal that is supported would imply that a 240p component signal is also supported. This also means that the opposite is true: no 240p composite => no 240p component. Although we do accept that we can be wrong, we still want to share our technical opinion. There are no hard facts to support our theory, besides the reality that our SNES & Genesis component cable prototypes have worked on most of the newer TVs we have tried.





    Compatibility List



    Here, we present our findings regarding equipment input compatibility for the "double-strike" 240p/288p signals generated by retro consoles like the Sega Genesis/Megadrive and Super Nintendo/Famicom.


    NOTE: For all categories, an asterisk (*) and yellow highlighting indicate that the result is not clear-cut and you should read the notes/comments column for more detailed information.
    ***DISCLAIMER***: These lists are for reference ONLY. Everything below was tested with either a Sega Genesis 2 (VA1) or Sega Nomad as the source equipment. Since what is normally called "240p" is a non-standard type of signaling, different consoles (and console revisions) can output different versions of it. Therefore, the best way to know if our cables will work with your equipment is to perform the test we describe below on the exact console you intend to use. Other potential issues related to YPbPr inputs, such as sync jitter and color accuracy, are not necessarily addressed in these tests.
    Televisions

    For televisions/monitors, we present two key columns in our tests as follows:
    240p Compatibility Test - A pass means the television was able to display a 240p signal over its component video inputs. A fail means that the TV failed to properly detect a signal and will require a separate video processing box such as our future product, the HDMIzer. In the meantime, check out our list of compatible Video Processors below.
    240p Processing Test - A pass means the television processed the signal correctly and we did not see strange artifacts (e.g. combing or completely missing/solid sprites when blinking). A fail means those artifacts were present in some form. For many people this is not an issue, thus failure of this test does not necessarily require an external video processor.


    ***DISCLAIMER***: These lists are for reference ONLY. Everything below was tested with either a Sega Genesis 2 (VA1) or Sega Nomad as the source equipment. Since what is normally called "240p" is a non-standard type of signaling, different consoles (and console revisions) can output different versions of it. Therefore, the best way to know if our cables will work with your equipment is to perform the test we describe below on the exact console you intend to use. Other potential issues related to YPbPr inputs, such as sync jitter and color accuracy, are not necessarily addressed in these tests.


    Capture Cards

    With video capture cards, the processing is usually done by software in the PC. Open Broadcasting Software (OBS) was used unless the manufacturer's software was required to properly interface with the card. Our goal is mainly to test for 240p compatibility with component video (YPbPr). However, we've noticed that many capture cards have trouble with 240p over composite (CVBS), so we made sure to test this as well (if available). The testing criteria is as follows:
    240p Test (YPbPr/CVBS) - A pass means the capture card was able to detect a valid 240p signal through its corresponding video input and send it to software for processing. A fail means that the card is unable to acquire a signal and will require a separate video processing box such as our future product, the HDMIzer. In the meantime, check out our list of compatible Video Processors below.




    ***DISCLAIMER***: These lists are for reference ONLY. Everything below was tested with either a Sega Genesis 2 (VA1) or Sega Nomad as the source equipment. Since what is normally called "240p" is a non-standard type of signaling, different consoles (and console revisions) can output different versions of it. Therefore, the best way to know if our cables will work with your equipment is to perform the test we describe below on the exact console you intend to use. Other potential issues related to YPbPr inputs, such as sync jitter and color accuracy, are not necessarily addressed in these tests.


    Video Processors

    These are intermediate devices which accept 240p component video signals, and then change them into a format that all HDTVs can accept. If you'd like to add 240p component video support to your incompatible television or monitor, this is a good place to start.


    ***DISCLAIMER***: These lists are for reference ONLY. Everything below was tested with either a Sega Genesis 2 (VA1) or Sega Nomad as the source equipment. Since what is normally called "240p" is a non-standard type of signaling, different consoles (and console revisions) can output different versions of it. Therefore, the best way to know if our cables will work with your equipment is to perform the test we describe below on the exact console you intend to use. Other potential issues related to YPbPr inputs, such as sync jitter and color accuracy, are not necessarily addressed in these tests.



    Compatibility Test

    Although connecting a Playstation 2 via component video and launching a Playstation 1 game is a common way to see if your TV accepts 240p component video, there is an even simpler (and more accurate) method. All that is required is a retro console, such as a Super Nintendo or Sega Genesis, its corresponding composite video cable, and a game cartridge to run on it. Depending on how your TVs input jacks are laid out, there may be a couple of things you have to do differently. Because of this, you might also need an extra A/V cable with at least 2 RCA plugs.

    NOTE: Before beginning the test, please verify that your console and game work properly. We have seen failures like this where the user wrongfully blamed the TV instead of the equipment.




    Required Test Equipment


    Rear of TV with separate component video and composite video inputs.


    For TVs with separate composite video and component video jacks


    1. Connect the composite video (yellow) cord from your retro console into the Y (green) jack of the component video set on your TV.
    2. Select the corresponding input on your TV. For example, if you plugged the cable into the jack labeled Component 2, then select Component 2 on your TV's input menu.
    3. Insert a game and turn on your retro console.
    4. Verify that a picture is displayed indicating that your game is running. The picture should be black & white with some distortions where color should be. This is normal and indicates that your TV is compatible. If you see a message that says "No Signal", "Unsupported Signal Format", or "Mode Not Supported" then your TV doesn't accept 240p on its component video inputs. You'll need a separate processing box or a different TV.







    Two different TVs having shared composite & component video inputs.


    For TVs with shared composite video and component video jacks


    1. Connect the composite video (yellow) cord from your retro console into the Y/Video jack on the TV. This shared jack is usually colored green, but sometimes it's half-green/half-yellow or it's green with a yellow halo on the plastic behind it.
    2. Connect two extra RCAs cables (color doesn't matter) into the Pb (blue) and Pr (red) jacks next to this Y/Video jack. Make sure the other end of these two cables remain disconnected. We advise against using the RCA audio cables (red & white) coming from the console which you're using for this test.
    3. Select the corresponding input on your TV. On some TVs, it is vital that you plug the connectors into your TV prior to selecting the desired input. TVs usually have three different ways of determining which type of signal to use on the shared jack.
      • Auto-detection: Only having the Y/Video jack connected has the TV assume that composite video is plugged into the shared jack. Plugging in additional RCA cables (into Pb & Pr) trips a switch in the jacks that indicates to the TV to use component video. Either the TV will unlock the option for you to change to the correct video input, or when you select your shared input (ex. "AV 2 / Component 2") it knows which to pick.
      • Separate Input Entries: When selecting your input, there will be two separate entries for the shared jack. For example, Component 2 and A/V 2 will be listed separately even though they refer to the same jack.
      • Setup Menu Setting: On some TVs (like many Toshiba ones), you're required to go into the setup menu to change what type of signal the TV should accept over the shared port(s). You must change this menu setting every time you switch between component and composite on the shared jack.

    4. Insert a game and turn on your retro console.
    5. Verify that a picture is displayed indicating that your game is running. The picture should be black & white with some distortions where color should be. This is normal and indicates that your TV is compatible. If you receive a color picture instead of black & white, then please re-check the above process. If you see a message that says "No Signal", "Unsupported Signal Format", or "Mode Not Supported" then your TV doesn't accept 240p on its component video inputs. You'll need a separate processing box or a different TV.








    Last edited by SwampFox56; 04-16-2016 at 02:54 AM.
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    Road Rasher Solkia's Avatar
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    You can add LG 32LF500B 2015 model to the list of tvs that don't accept 240p over component
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer View Post
    Oh. I'm kind of new to the Genesis so I didn't know. It took a lot of time tearing that MUSHA label off. It came off in many pieces so I just stuck them on the insert and manual (which I also trashed) while I was doing it. I did keep the plastic case, though!

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    Nonconformist Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent EyeDeeNo76's Avatar
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    You know what grinds my gears, the TV's get bigger with faster refresh rate, better inking blacks and contrast screens but the inputs get fewer and fewer also most have no RCA audio out.

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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Did you just copy paste the page from the HDRetrovision site?:

    http://www.hdretrovision.com/240p/

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    Turricanator Wildside Expert SwampFox56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Did you just copy paste the page from the HDRetrovision site?:

    http://www.hdretrovision.com/240p/
    Yup. But apparently, people couldn't google this and I had to spoon feed them
    Last edited by SwampFox56; 04-16-2016 at 05:51 PM.
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    I tested my Phillips 32PF5320/10 with my Wii connected via component cables and enabling 240p mode via VC games. In Mario 2 when you hold down and your character begins flashing. So it at least accepts the 240p signal, but probably thinks it's 480i

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    The yamaha line of receivers (pre 2011? abouts) support analog -> analog conversion over component

    Here is an example of the upscaling

    As you can see the signal is converted to digital and then upscaled. This can result in lag but I imagine this upscaling is /much/ quicker than those chinese upscalers on amazon and ebay.

    I am posting this here because this information was either incorrectly represented online, or nonexistent. These 2010's yamaha receivers are perfectly capable of handling 240p but can only convert and upscale, not pass the 240p signal through.

    model used in this screenshot is a yamaha rx-v867 but any within the same family should experience the same results as the same hardware is used.

    edit: clarified this is over component input, not composite/svideo
    Last edited by ncorvasce92; 05-12-2016 at 08:01 PM.

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    The Gentleman Thief Baloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampFox56 View Post
    Yup. But apparently, people couldn't google this and I had to spoon feed them
    Just a funny story four years later, searched on DuckDuckGo "how to determine if TV supports 240p" and this thread was at the top of search results, listed more clearly as a title than the HD Retrovision result down the page. So this helped me find it as I wouldnt even think of using the forum search feature on this topic. Thanks again.
    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    The Sega Saturn was God's gift to humanity. This is inarguable fact!



    Feedback Thread: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...ack&highlight=

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    I should try connecting my Genesis to my 2009 Samsung LCD, to see if it supports 240p. It has worked fine on my 2002 27" Sony Wega and my 2005 32" Sony Hi-Scan CRTs.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    The Gentleman Thief Baloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I should try connecting my Genesis to my 2009 Samsung LCD, to see if it supports 240p. It has worked fine on my 2002 27" Sony Wega and my 2005 32" Sony Hi-Scan CRTs.
    My 37" Panasonic VIERA TC37D2 LCD TV supports 240p over component. It surprisingly also has 3 HDMI ports (one with ARC), two composite inputs. The picture is OK, but I don't plan on getting rid of it any time soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    The Sega Saturn was God's gift to humanity. This is inarguable fact!



    Feedback Thread: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...ack&highlight=

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    My 37" Panasonic VIERA TC37D2 LCD TV supports 240p over component. It surprisingly also has 3 HDMI ports (one with ARC), two composite inputs. The picture is OK, but I don't plan on getting rid of it any time soon.
    When my Samsung television had the power supply go out, I could have just opted to go 4K, but I really loved all of the features and inputs that the display has. It's no wonder it was a $2500 television (I paid $1500 for it) when I got it. I ended up replacing the faulty caps in the PSU @ 2016 and it's been golden since.




    It has 3 HDMI inputs, 1 S-Video/composite, 2 Component inputs and 1 VGA input.




    Here it is running In The Hunt via the PS3. The sprite images are sharp (except for what appears to be some motion blue), and I'm not sure if I was running the display in 120 Hz mode.




    I did connect my C-64 to the television using an S-Video cable. It looked great.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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