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Thread: Why do people have issues with others not being fans of the SNES?

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    I've owned and beat Yoshi's Island back in the day one. Was a good game and pretty epic game that one and only playthrough. But the thing that really pissed my brother and I about it is that they ditched the world maps of SMB3 & World. Those maps added so much more to the imagination and immersion (especially as kid). It also adds better to memory, as for SMB3 & World I remember where certain memorable levels and secrets where located on the map. Here in Yoshi's Island, it's all a blur. And as messed up as this sound, it's actually a personal reason I don't care much for this entree (maybe why I also never bothered to find everything in this game too). Miyamoto's focus on just gameplay is a little too much ever since. Immersion is what big time helps fuel the fanboy fire too, which results in more hype and free publicity. You'd think developers would approve.

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    Road Rasher Folco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightrider View Post
    ^If that were true, why has no JRPG(barring one series, bolstered by trading cards and animes) come close to Final Fantasy VII's sales since?
    I know JRPG isn't a very popular genre in the west (or even in Japan nowadays) because with a few exceptions (series we all know) this was never true but having FFVII as a threshold is silly (too high!).
    How many japanese games sold more than FFVII did on PS1 (9.81 million units) if we exclude Nintendo?
    You can use the fingers of one hand to count them.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
    Is there a list anywhere of the top selling SNES games in NA/Europe that's accurate?
    No, the only accurate data is the million seller shipment data provided by Nintendo which is worldwide (you can subtract the japanese shipment data if a game is a million seller but the number of million seller in Japan isn't that big):
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963700
    Last edited by Folco; 09-09-2016 at 11:36 AM.

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    Master of Shinobi GeckoYamori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Let me ask you this. Have you ever seriously played a musical instrument?
    I have, but that's kind of beside the point. Years upon years of critical listening for analytical purposes has yielded a lot more than something I did a long time ago.

    I've analyzed and reverse engineered the Vega track, and I think I figured out what the main problem is, which is the attack of the trumpet sample (which I think is actually supposed to be a trombone, but the short loop can't give it the decay needed, so it has a more sustaine brightness turning it into some kind of weird hybrid). The attack part itself is a slightly different pitch from the sustain/loop (looks like around 10 cents), which is pretty normal when it comes to instruments like brass or guitars. Thing is, it is being played in rapid staccato sequences, but the sample itself is not really a staccato articulation and was not meant to be used as such. So the attack becomes the dominant part of what you're hearing, and in turn the different pitch since the sample was tuned with the sustain part in mind, and so it sounds off relative to the other instruments being played.

    Here's a .spc rip of the original with the tonal instruments isolated, followed by my own mockup using the same ripped and re-tuned samples, and then finally one where I edited out the attack from the sample leaving only the sustain.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66640537/sf2.mp3

    And then, here's a short looped excerpt of the original followed by a mockup where I re-tune it with the attack in mind and leave out the sustain.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...37/sf2%202.mp3

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    Master of Shinobi midnightrider's Avatar
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    ^Long story short, same with the consoles on the whole: Different strokes, for different folks. It shouldn't be necessary to understand why someone doesn't prefer one consoles sounds(or anything else about it) over the other. Just deal with it, and listen to(/play the games on) the one you're going to. Edit: Guess what I'm trying to say is that, if you both hear something different, you're not likely to convince the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Folco View Post
    I know JRPG isn't a very popular genre in the west (or even in Japan nowadays) because with a few exceptions (series we all know) this was never true but having FFVII as a threshold is silly (too high!).
    How many japanese games sold more than FFVII did on PS1 (9.81 million units) if we exclude Nintendo?
    You can use the fingers of one hand to count them.
    If the genre was to have suddenly burst in popularity because of that game, would it not stand to reason that it's own sequels should have sold just as well, if not better? Then other games in the genre should have begun to sell exceptionally well too. That's the problem with the argument, is when someone suggests it made the genre mainstream, when it was little more than an overhyped game, that made publishers take more of a chance on localizing the genre at the time. Then the 'net nerd fans of something like the "Tales of" series don't appreciate the bone they're given when they do get a localized game within, because the series obviously doesn't sell well enough here for continuous localizations.
    Last edited by midnightrider; 09-09-2016 at 04:19 PM.

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoYamori View Post
    I have, but that's kind of beside the point. Years upon years of critical listening for analytical purposes has yielded a lot more than something I did a long time ago.

    I've analyzed and reverse engineered the Vega track, and I think I figured out what the main problem is, which is the attack of the trumpet sample (which I think is actually supposed to be a trombone, but the short loop can't give it the decay needed, so it has a more sustaine brightness turning it into some kind of weird hybrid). The attack part itself is a slightly different pitch from the sustain/loop (looks like around 10 cents), which is pretty normal when it comes to instruments like brass or guitars. Thing is, it is being played in rapid staccato sequences, but the sample itself is not really a staccato articulation and was not meant to be used as such. So the attack becomes the dominant part of what you're hearing, and in turn the different pitch since the sample was tuned with the sustain part in mind, and so it sounds off relative to the other instruments being played.

    Here's a .spc rip of the original with the tonal instruments isolated, followed by my own mockup using the same ripped and re-tuned samples, and then finally one where I edited out the attack from the sample leaving only the sustain.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66640537/sf2.mp3

    And then, here's a short looped excerpt of the original followed by a mockup where I re-tune it with the attack in mind and leave out the sustain.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...37/sf2%202.mp3
    It's not a trombone. The artist was going for a Spanish Bullfight sounding song, to fit the theme for Vega. Vega's costume is that of a bull fighter. The Spanish Bullfight Songs have a trumpet lead, with maybe a couple of trombones in accompaniment. A trombone will have a sliding tone when it changes notes.




    Here's the exact tune created using Mario Paint. The flowers are trumpets.

    Last edited by gamevet; 09-09-2016 at 06:59 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Raging in the Streets goldenband's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoYamori View Post
    I've analyzed and reverse engineered the Vega track, and I think I figured out what the main problem is, which is the attack of the trumpet sample [...] is a slightly different pitch from the sustain/loop (looks like around 10 cents), which is pretty normal when it comes to instruments like brass or guitars. Thing is, it is being played in rapid staccato sequences, but the sample itself is not really a staccato articulation and was not meant to be used as such. So the attack becomes the dominant part of what you're hearing, and in turn the different pitch since the sample was tuned with the sustain part in mind, and so it sounds off relative to the other instruments being played.

    Here's a .spc rip of the original with the tonal instruments isolated, followed by my own mockup using the same ripped and re-tuned samples, and then finally one where I edited out the attack from the sample leaving only the sustain.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66640537/sf2.mp3

    And then, here's a short looped excerpt of the original followed by a mockup where I re-tune it with the attack in mind and leave out the sustain.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...37/sf2%202.mp3
    Good ears! I think most listeners can tolerate about 12-15 cents of discrepancy before something consciously starts to sound out of tune, especially in a staccato part like that and especially in the flat direction. So it's easy to understand why this escapes most folks' notice (including mine until now, and I do have absolute pitch FWIW), but you're clearly right that it's there.

    You mentioned some samples in the SNES version being nearly a quarter-tone (i.e. 50 cents) out. Did you have any examples of that?

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    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    It's not a trombone. The artist was going for a Spanish Bullfight sounding song, to fit the theme for Vega. Vega's costume is that of a bull fighter. The Spanish Bullfight Songs have a trumpet lead, with maybe a couple of trombones in accompaniment. A trombone will have a sliding tone when it changes notes.

    Holy Shit! Trekkies being a dipshit who never even bothers to cite sources, Barone pretending he is a responsible poster, and their buddy "Stu" the anti-Orbi guy troll don't bother me at all. But This group cannot even stand up for a guy who has done more than enough work on the audio end of Sega Genesis related emulation and mods?!

    Oh yeah, I keep forgetting to cowtow for never researching like these geniuses.

    http://gamepilgrimage.com/content/3d...1se-benchmarks
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

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    Hey, Sheath is back. Welcome back, Sheath. And stick around.

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    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Sheath! I just mentioned your absence something like a few months ago! A warm welcome back.

    As for this thread's topic, I could never take them seriously. I beat SMW to the farthest end I could. I accumulated something like 560 lives just replaying every single level and getting through all the hidden stages, all without a walkthrough.

    SMW is not a fun game. Once I finished it to the secret ending, I had a "that's it?" moment. It was literally one level (and one musical motif!) repeated ad nauseam. I vowed never to play a boring game again, so I picked up a game with a fat blue hedgehog on the cover and Blades was never the same.

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    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folco View Post
    I know JRPG isn't a very popular genre in the west (or even in Japan nowadays)
    Eh, while traditional JRPGs are indeed not doing that well, RPG as a concept certainly is not in Japan. If you want to release a mobile game over there and hope to even remotely stand a chance, your game needs to be a RPG, period. And kind of a big deal since they're abandoning consoles in general because they barely have any time left to play games anymore (in many cases their only chance to play games is on the commute, because Japan these days is more workacoholic than ever, and spare time practically doesn't exist anymore for anybody with a job).

    But yeah they aren't exactly the same thing as JRPGs, though most of the problems plaguing JRPGs are common to all kinds of RPGs in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    As for this thread's topic, I could never take them seriously. I beat SMW to the farthest end I could. I accumulated something like 560 lives just replaying every single level and getting through all the hidden stages, all without a walkthrough.

    SMW is not a fun game. Once I finished it to the secret ending, I had a "that's it?" moment. It was literally one level (and one musical motif!) repeated ad nauseam. I vowed never to play a boring game again, so I picked up a game with a fat blue hedgehog on the cover and Blades was never the same.
    Yeah, I beat SMW too back in the day when I got my SNES with then just released SFII (115$ with tax that game was in Canada brand new when it came out. I'll never forget that crazy price tag). Only I could never find like 4 of the exits. But yes, I too hit that point where SMW appeal just vanished completely after I finally gave up on finding the last 4 or so exists. Even just before I got the SNES and seen it at a friends house, I always wanted play F-Zero instead (the only other SNES game they had). Speaking of that friend, I was always surprised he wanted to play my SMB3 over his brand new SMBW. He said he likes SMB3 better. I didn't believe him back then. But now I do.

    Might as well add this too. That one friend also played my Knight Rider game (that dad bought) once or twice, and I always remember him saying it's not as good as Rad Racer. And I knew of that name and cover as I seen it enough in game stores. But never played it until recently. And yes. He was right. Rad Racer is way rad. But have yet to play Knight Rider again to see how it holds up to how I see games today (though I didn't like it back then).

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    Road Rasher Folco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightrider View Post
    If the genre was to have suddenly burst in popularity because of that game, would it not stand to reason that it's own sequels should have sold just as well, if not better? Then other games in the genre should have begun to sell exceptionally well too. That's the problem with the argument, is when someone suggests it made the genre mainstream, when it was little more than an overhyped game, that made publishers take more of a chance on localizing the genre at the time. Then the 'net nerd fans of something like the "Tales of" series don't appreciate the bone they're given when they do get a localized game within, because the series obviously doesn't sell well enough here for continuous localizations.
    It's not always the case, sometime an early game in a series/genre maxed out the sales potential.
    For example Super Mario Bros., Pokemon R/G/B, Kirby's Dreamland, Mega Man 2, Street Fighter 2 (SNES) or Dragon Quest III (which is close to be the best selling JRPG in Japan despite being released in 1988).
    Usually when a genre burst in popularity you have one or two game series that sell extremely well which are usually those that popularize the genre in the first instance or the one who stole the thunder (example: Street Fighter 2), a few clones that set themselves apart and are met with favourable responses (example: Mortal Kombat or Killer Instinct) which sell very very good and a bunch of more or less notable clones that sell decently but aren't true hit which are produced in great quantity while the genre is still hot because publishers hope in a potential big return (many tries fails though).

    BTW FFVII sequels (namely FFVIII and FFX) sold very well and not too far off FFVII (about 8.6 million units worldwide).

    What I agree with you is that the JRPG genre explosion in the west is often misunderstood.
    What is regarded as a genre explosion in the west in reality was the explosion in popularity of a single publisher: Squaresoft.
    During the PS1 generation, not every JRPGs game brought in US sold well.
    In fact if you could look at NPD chart for PS1 you could see that only a fraction of JRPG released sold more than 200K and all of these have a specific reason why they got higher sales than the rest:
    1- They were published by Squaresoft which was seen as the publisher of reference for the genre.
    or
    2- They are special cases, for example JRPGs pushed by the hardware manufacturer which of course had greater visibility than "normal" third party publishers.

    However the genre was undeniably considered hot because publishers at the time brought an unusually high quantity of games in that genre to the american market.
    They translated all those games (which isn't free) because they saw potential and while as I said above most of them sold at best decently it was enough to sustain the genre expansion in the west.
    Last edited by Folco; 09-10-2016 at 05:38 AM.

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Holy Shit! Trekkies being a dipshit who never even bothers to cite sources, Barone pretending he is a responsible poster, and their buddy "Stu" the anti-Orbi guy troll don't bother me at all. But This group cannot even stand up for a guy who has done more than enough work on the audio end of Sega Genesis related emulation and mods?!

    Oh yeah, I keep forgetting to cowtow for never researching like these geniuses.

    http://gamepilgrimage.com/content/3d...1se-benchmarks

    Sure dude, and he tells me that a trumpet sounds like a Trombone. I sat in front of the trombone section for over 6 years.

    I just added someone actually composing the sound track spot on using Mario Paint. It clearly shows the trumpet notes (2 trumpets in harmony) and that it is not a single instrument playing the staccato part, like he is trying to show there.



    I never said that it sounded just like the real instrument. I said that it sound pretty close to the real thing. The higher pitched notes start to sound very synthetic and lacking of the warm sound of brass.
    Last edited by gamevet; 09-09-2016 at 07:24 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Raging in the Streets SEGA.GENESIS1989's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Holy Shit! Trekkies being a dipshit who never even bothers to cite sources, Barone pretending he is a responsible poster, and their buddy "Stu" the anti-Orbi guy troll don't bother me at all. But This group cannot even stand up for a guy who has done more than enough work on the audio end of Sega Genesis related emulation and mods?!

    Oh yeah, I keep forgetting to cowtow for never researching like these geniuses.

    http://gamepilgrimage.com/content/3d...1se-benchmarks
    Holy shit is right! Where the feck have you been? And how is fatherhood treating you? Are you still busy changing those nappies?

    Barone, Trekkies, and Stu may give you shit! But the unsaid truth is they'll be happy that your back ... if only to continue the Dreamcast/PS2 debate!

    Welcome back Sheath!
    "There's nothing to fear, except fear itself"
    http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s486/link2link2link/YUZOKOSHIROISAGODNEOSEEDEDITION.gif

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    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Sure dude, and he tells me that a trumpet sounds like a Trombone. I sat in front of the trombone section for over 6 years.

    I just added someone actually composing the sound track spot on using Mario Paint. It clearly shows the trumpet notes (2 trumpets in harmony) and that it is not a single instrument playing the staccato part, like he is trying to show there.



    I never said that it sounded just like the real instrument. I said that it sound pretty close to the real thing. The higher pitched notes start to sound very synthetic and lacking of the warm sound of brass.
    Your Youtube examples sound like enhanced emulation. I have heard plenty of off tune SNES samples to know that GeckoYamori is on to something. MK2 is a great example.

    Hi all, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't have come back.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

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