Quantcast

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 36

Thread: Dithering on the Genesis/Mega Drive with Composite Video

  1. #1
    Sports Talker CkRtech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    46
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Dithering on the Genesis/Mega Drive with Composite Video

    Hey guys -

    I really love RGB, and I think the Genesis/Mega Drive is among the best in terms of native RGB output. However, I do feel that the recent years of promoting RGB via PVMs and upscalers has cast a bit of a shadow over the use of dithering on the system - something that I feel was done quite well by the artists of the time.

    No matter what your choice - RGB, component, S-video, composite video, or RF - I hope you guys are enjoying your Genesis/Mega Drive games!

    For those of you interested in dithering - I tried to give it a bit of a promotion or at least help propagate acknowledgement with this video. I hope you enjoy it.


  2. #2
    Road Rasher ironnick23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    342
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    I use rgb and at times I do miss composite. I just canít give up that color. If I were able to get the quality of composite you displayed in your emulator example on real hardware without the rainbow banding I would go for it hah. The phosphor glow and scanlines I think further enhance the image in terms of detail and color depth. Currently without a crt we only can achieve scanlines with upscalers.

    Please make more videos!

  3. #3
    Beat Em Ups Master of Shinobi cowboyscowboys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,123
    Rep Power
    24

    Default

    I can't play the Genesis in anything other than composite. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    Women Asian Please
    Beat Em Up- Streets of Rage 2
    Platformer- Sonic 3 and Knuckles
    Run and Gun- Gunstar Heroes
    Adventure- Story of Thor
    Action- Shinobi 3

  4. #4
    Road Rasher
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    309
    Rep Power
    16

    Default

    I don't like how the first seconds are "you should use". Would have been better to say you may want to use.
    Not all games (very few IMO) where made with composite in mind. For some very few parts of some games like the sonic exemples don't justify the blurry smearing (not to mention genesis composite quality is known to be very poor)
    Grid/ordered dithering was always a part of graphic design and creation. Dithering is not dirty. Ecco and Ecco 2 probably feature the most dithered graphics on the plateform, but I would never want to lose all the details.

    Vertical dithering patern was made for composite bluring, but very few are completely made with this kind of dithering, and many of them are from western devs. And even then the gain in detail and clarity far outweights the blending effect.

    The one game I can get behind playing in composite is Vectorman, it's downright ugly in higher quality signals, but with all the blending it get good to amazing (the underwater level is incredible).

    Oh and as for the classic "like the devs intended" argument, please say "as SOME devs intended" cause some devs intended dithering (and scanlines too)



  5. #5
    Sports Talker CkRtech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    46
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ironnick23 View Post
    I use rgb and at times I do miss composite. I just canít give up that color. If I were able to get the quality of composite you displayed in your emulator example on real hardware without the rainbow banding I would go for it hah. The phosphor glow and scanlines I think further enhance the image in terms of detail and color depth. Currently without a crt we only can achieve scanlines with upscalers.

    Please make more videos!
    That's awesome. I really float around in terms of display for gaming - RGB, composite, even RF on an 80s TV. I agree about phosphor glow and scanline effect. I think there is a lot of aesthetic of using (and simulating) a CRT TV. I hope to see some good solutions for simulating it in the future. Thanks for watching and for your words of encouragement!

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyscowboys View Post
    I can't play the Genesis in anything other than composite. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    I am glad you shared this, cowboyscowboys. I got the feeling from cruising sega-16 over the years (long before my join date, too) that a lot of guys here feel the same way you do. Honestly, sega-16 was one of my reasons for deciding I wanted to hit the dithering topic because I feel that there are actually a good number of guys here that tip their hat to composite video, and it is somewhat... dismissed by many - especially in the modern era. I feel that it is primarily judged by what it looks like plugged directly into a fixed pixel display - a display it was not designed to use. That is similar to asking someone to make an apple pie after handing them oranges. (... if that analogy made any sense... Ha!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryoandr View Post
    I don't like how the first seconds are "you should use". Would have been better to say you may want to use.
    Not all games (very few IMO) where made with composite in mind. For some very few parts of some games like the sonic exemples don't justify the blurry smearing (not to mention genesis composite quality is known to be very poor)
    Grid/ordered dithering was always a part of graphic design and creation. Dithering is not dirty. Ecco and Ecco 2 probably feature the most dithered graphics on the plateform, but I would never want to lose all the details.

    Vertical dithering patern was made for composite bluring, but very few are completely made with this kind of dithering, and many of them are from western devs. And even then the gain in detail and clarity far outweights the blending effect.

    The one game I can get behind playing in composite is Vectorman, it's downright ugly in higher quality signals, but with all the blending it get good to amazing (the underwater level is incredible).

    Oh and as for the classic "like the devs intended" argument, please say "as SOME devs intended" cause some devs intended dithering (and scanlines too)
    Hey Ryoandr.

    I am sorry. I certainly didn't mean for it to sound like I was wanting to point people in a single direction - far from it. My intention was to merely make sure that the door leading to composite video existed and is unlocked - awaiting those that seek it intentionally. I feel that the video signal is dismissed these days, and I just wanted to make sure that it got a little tip of the cap.

    The "you should use" line wasn't meant literally as a declaration from me - It was meant more as an "earcatch" or hook for the start of the video to help generate interest and discussion.

    It was tough to choose which games to hit. I knew I wanted to touch on Sonic because of the waterfall and Earthworm Jim because it has been cited on the subject in the past. I was playing Shinobi III recently and included it because I saw some really great examples (throughout the entire game). Now that you mentioned Vectorman, I want to mess with that one a bit!

    I personally don't like the "devs intended" argument (be it "the devs" or "some devs") because I feel that while a statement or assumption on what developers intended might appear to lead credence to one side of an argument over how something should be displayed, what signal is used and what display is used is ultimately 100% up to the individual gamer and not meant to be a consensus reached by the masses.

    My take for any video I make will always be for an individual to discover what he or she likes the most and then game on!

  6. #6
    Road Rasher XeroShinobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    302
    Rep Power
    13

    Default

    It's not that composite is never worth using for more complete dithering effects, it's that the Genesis in particular has poor composite quality and excellent RGB quality. Only a few games on the system benefit enough from full dithering effects via composite to make it more appealing than RGB.

  7. #7
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,304
    Rep Power
    83

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryoandr View Post
    Not all games (very few IMO) where made with composite in mind.
    What are you talking about. When these games were developed, 99% of TVs in Japan and the US had composite, and no one cared about Europe except for European developers.

  8. #8
    Raging in the Streets bultje112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Noviomagus, The Netherlands
    Posts
    2,608
    Rep Power
    37

    Default

    all you need to do is put sharpness down on your tv screen with rgb if you don't like the sharpness of the graphics. I can't stand anything else than rgb though.

  9. #9
    Road Rasher
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    309
    Rep Power
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    What are you talking about. When these games were developed, 99% of TVs in Japan and the US had composite, and no one cared about Europe except for European developers.
    Did you open the full images of the TF4 manual I posted ? If they intended composite use, they would have put photos from a composite setup and you would not see the dithering.

    It's obvious some devs did their work purely on an RGB setup and then let the console and its owner do whatever for the signal (most probably those with an arcade background), while others went for the most common cable and tinkered with it.
    Last edited by Ryoandr; 07-28-2018 at 06:27 AM.

  10. #10
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingSports Talker waterclaws6's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    35
    Rep Power
    0

    Genesis

    I found acceptable solution to deal with genesis dithering on PC emulators, the best way is to use either ntsc shader usually the one that mimics s-video or for games like Jurassic Park or a Sega CD fmv game use a composite ntsc. Also faint scanlines can help also.

    Note this advice is for somthing like retroarch, if kega fusion is use, then download the video plugins and try them out and never use xbrz or hq2x, because those make games look like bad paint smudges.
    Last edited by waterclaws6; 07-28-2018 at 06:44 AM.
    TRUST BUT VERIFY IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

  11. #11
    Nonconformist Hedgehog-in-TrainingWCPO Agent EyeDeeNo76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    97km north of New York City
    Age
    43
    Posts
    891
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyscowboys View Post
    I can't play the Genesis in anything other than composite. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    +1

    Composite was highest native option for the US market back in the day edit: for the Genesis. I am use to it but has to be on a CRT.
    Don't know what I'm going to do when the CRT dies?
    Last edited by EyeDeeNo76; 07-28-2018 at 12:38 PM.

  12. #12
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,426
    Rep Power
    58

    Default

    Anyone who thinks RCA leads are better than RGB Scart really haven't played a Mega Drive in RGB. The MD RGB output is one of the best out of any consoles and totally and utterly kills the crap display from the basic RCA leads. The only time it hurts the MD is when playing the Mega CD full motion games with real footage (not cartoon) the picture is so pin sharp it really shows up the limited FMV display and the grain.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  13. #13
    Beat Em Ups Master of Shinobi cowboyscowboys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,123
    Rep Power
    24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Anyone who thinks RCA leads are better than RGB Scart really haven't played a Mega Drive in RGB. The MD RGB output is one of the best out of any consoles and totally and utterly kills the crap display from the basic RCA leads. The only time it hurts the MD is when playing the Mega CD full motion games with real footage (not cartoon) the picture is so pin sharp it really shows up the limited FMV display and the grain.
    Clearly you just don't "get it" because I completely disagree.
    Women Asian Please
    Beat Em Up- Streets of Rage 2
    Platformer- Sonic 3 and Knuckles
    Run and Gun- Gunstar Heroes
    Adventure- Story of Thor
    Action- Shinobi 3

  14. #14
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,426
    Rep Power
    58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyscowboys View Post
    Clearly you just don't "get it" because I completely disagree.
    Have you actually played an MD in RGB? (i don't mean that as a insult) . It's by far and away the best option for the best picture quality. The RBG output of the Model 1 Mega Drive is staggering and makes up for any issues over dithering. TBH dithering looks pretty rubbish even on RCA leads or Scart, much like for the Sega Saturn.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  15. #15
    Beat Em Ups Master of Shinobi cowboyscowboys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,123
    Rep Power
    24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Have you actually played an MD in RGB? (i don't mean that as a insult) . It's by far and away the best option for the best picture quality. The RBG output of the Model 1 Mega Drive is staggering and makes up for any issues over dithering. TBH dithering looks pretty rubbish even on RCA leads or Scart, much like for the Sega Saturn.
    Yes I have and I consider every Genesis game worse looking in RGB and some flat out ugly. Some people want a sharp crystal clear image. Others like myself prefer a softer image with smoother gradients and proper looking effects. I don't want to see dithering, mesh instead of transperincies etc.

    Saturn I play using composite as well... No checkerboard transparency complaints coming from me because I don't see the checkerboards.
    Women Asian Please
    Beat Em Up- Streets of Rage 2
    Platformer- Sonic 3 and Knuckles
    Run and Gun- Gunstar Heroes
    Adventure- Story of Thor
    Action- Shinobi 3

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •