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Thread: Streets of Rage 4 (Official Thread)

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    AKA Mister Xiado Master of Shinobi Raijin Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    almost everyone loves this game and you don't. guess who is wrong?
    Argumentum ad populum is a dangerous thing.
    - Where it's always 1992 (or so).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Approving the development of a game has nothing to do with supporting it.

    Why are you so resistant to what I'm saying, yet have obviously not read the sources?

    Quote from Masato Maegawa of Treasure from a talk he gave 2 years ago:

    "Sega provided almost no support. Other publishers would give you 10, or even 20-30 support staff as relief when needed. I actually liked that Sega gave us no support, since it meant we could make the games as we wanted... As I just mentioned about not having any development support, I also had to do all of the promotional work myself. I went to all of the magazines, including Famitsu. Since Sega was the first publisher I worked with, I thought that was normal. I learned later that normal publishers would never let you do that."

    This stuff has been talked about elsewhere (also a lot by Hiroyuki Takahashi, in particular).

    You have some false image of Sega as carefully tending their crop of IPs back in the day. It never happened. Most often, a developer would propose a game to Sega, Sega would approve it (or not), and the developer would rush to finish it as fast as possible with as few people as absolutely necessary. A producer at Sega might oversee development, but only at a distance. Sega would then publish the game regardless of quality.

    You've put Streets of Rage on a pedestal in hindsight, but back in the day it was just another quickly developed title that Sega outsourced to an unproven company. Ayano Koshiro was only 22 years old when she oversaw the development of SOR2. If anything, Sega letting Lizardcube develop SOR4 is more in spirit with the classics.
    If you cared to post the sources...

    While I can believe to the dev tools statement for Treasure since it was common for second/third parties, the promotion and playtesting things make sense maybe only for the first project (Gunstar Heroes), but not for the rest of Treasure games, especially after the success of GH.
    First reason: Treasure was too little as a company to have that kind of coverage (in Japan and WW) on magazines and shows at the time, that was the result of sega commitment of course since they were funding the projects.
    Second reason: for curiosity I just looked to the Guardian Heroes manual (so the saturn era that you say that was even worst), and you can find various Sega of America producers and playstester in the credits, so Maegawa's statement is not valid, they had Sega direct support during the years.

    If you look at the various second party games, you can always find Sega internal staff from Japan or West in support, testing and publicity roles...

    For Streets of Rage 2, like I said previously Ancient were given the OK only after the team already proven their talent with Sonic MS/GG.
    Also they weren't left alone, the original SOR1 team was there for supervision as shown in the credits.

    As for Takahashi, I don't know what he said but I wouldn't give much credibility to his interviews from 1998 onward, since the break with Sega was harsh.
    But don't forget that Sonic/Camelot born as a Sega internal team, so they had the same (if not more) freedom and same responsibilities of other Sega teams.

    You just want to paint the same "no man's land" scenario in the 90's that we have now with current Sega licensed games, but that wasn't the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    almost everyone loves this game and you don't. guess who is wrong?
    A really weak argument don't you think?

    Especially since the majority of people, the ones that now praise these fake Sega games around, are the same people that let Sega die and were too busy with Nintendo and Sony when the original SOR or PD were released...


    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    yes and look at how well that worked for the first ecco the dolpin and streets of rage 3...
    Strange I remember these were great games... wait we are now trashing these classics only to justify the existence of SOR4 and the other imitation games?
    Last edited by Virtua Hunter; 05-04-2020 at 10:08 AM.

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    Playtesters don't mean much, they're essentially the QA staff which is there mainly to make sure that they don't put out a complete turd. So that'd leave the producers, though their job is more making sure that things are on track than actually defining the direction of the game (unless something goes awfully awry). But I guess it's easier to say that the developers are complete liars and pretend that Sega designed the whole games. Presuming that game developers are all liars seems to be a very gamer thing, after all.

    By the way, you can be assigned a job title and yet only be doing the most bare minimum.

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter View Post
    If you cared to post the sources...

    While I can believe to the dev tools statement for Treasure since it was common for second/third parties, the promotion and playtesting things make sense maybe only for the first project (Gunstar Heroes), but not for the rest of Treasure games, especially after the success of GH.
    First reason: Treasure was too little as a company to have that kind of coverage (in Japan and WW) on magazines and shows at the time, that was the result of sega commitment of course since they were funding the projects.
    Second reason: for curiosity I just looked to the Guardian Heroes manual (so the saturn era that you say that was even worst), and you can find various Sega of America producers and playstester in the credits, so Maegawa's statement is not valid, they had Sega direct support during the years.

    If you look at the various second party games, you can always find Sega internal staff from Japan or West in support, testing and publicity roles...

    For Streets of Rage 2, like I said previously Ancient were given the OK only after the team already proven their talent with Sonic MS/GG.
    Also they weren't left alone, the original SOR1 team was there for supervision as shown in the credits.

    As for Takahashi, I don't know what he said but I wouldn't give much credibility to his interviews from 1998 onward, since the break with Sega was harsh.
    But don't forget that Sonic/Camelot born as a Sega internal team, so they had the same (if not more) freedom and same responsibilities of other Sega teams.

    You just want to paint the same "no man's land" scenario in the 90's that we have now with current Sega licensed games, but that wasn't the case.
    Absurd. You're outright rejecting the words of the people that made the games to fit your imagined narrative.

    "If you cared to post the sources..." Can you understand Japanese? I just translated the relevant excerpt from the talk for you (it's from the Game Business Archive talk that I've posted about before here). Takahashi also talks extensively about the lack of support from Sega. The first thing he and Kan Naito had to do when they decided to work with Sega was create development tools - he said that Sega had NOTHING at the time. Maegawa said the same thing, and that was several years later. These are the people that worked more closely with Sega than just about any other independent developer, and they both state clearly that they were pretty much on their own the whole time (including, specifically, the promotion of their games). None of this has anything to do with Sega of America, by the way. These games were developed entirely in Japan.

    A few people here seem out of touch with the modern gaming industry. "Streets of Rage 4 should have been a super big AAA production" - the beat-em-up genre is not conducive to that kind of production. We'd end up with something completely different (think Yakuza battles reskinned for SOR) and then everybody would be complaining "This isn't SOR!"

    Sega's handling of SOR4 was well done. This kind of beat-em-up game is best left to a small team, which is how the genre has always been handled. I would much rather Sega license out their IPs to passionate third-party devs than have the IPs receive the AAA treatment, which just isn't going to work with a practically dead genre (beat-em-ups didn't make the transition to 3D well for a reason).

  6. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by bultje112 View Post
    almost everyone loves this game and you don't. guess who is wrong?
    The last Star Wars film grossed 775 million.

    The masses love crap. Popularity doesn't indicate quality.

    In this case it looks to have wound up being a profitable business decision.

    They shouldn't have titled it Streets of Rage 4 though. Just call Streets of Rage EXO NEO '20 or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    I know the urge of defending SOR4 is strong, but don't start to make confusion and wrong assumptions (like "people in Sega not doing their jobs" etc.)
    "Support" means just that, things like tech help, supervision, production, QA testing, promotion...

    Saying that these second party games were produced without any input or help from Sega is just a lie (even if it comes from Maegawa, of course he has his own version where he gets all he merits, especially now that Treasure games are regarded as true classics, but unfortunately for him facts contradicts his version), Treasure didn't have even a name for "Gunstar Heroes"...just saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    They shouldn't have titled it Streets of Rage 4 though. Just call Streets of Rage EXO NEO '20 or something.
    Can you explain why this really matters?

    It seems like half the negative reviews on Steam take the form: "This is a fun beat-em-up game, but it's not Streets of Rage!"

    What about the title changes the quality of the game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Absurd. You're outright rejecting the words of the people that made the games to fit your imagined narrative.

    "If you cared to post the sources..." Can you understand Japanese? I just translated the relevant excerpt from the talk for you (it's from the Game Business Archive talk that I've posted about before here). Takahashi also talks extensively about the lack of support from Sega. The first thing he and Kan Naito had to do when they decided to work with Sega was create development tools - he said that Sega had NOTHING at the time. Maegawa said the same thing, and that was several years later. These are the people that worked more closely with Sega than just about any other independent developer, and they both state clearly that they were pretty much on their own the whole time (including, specifically, the promotion of their games). None of this has anything to do with Sega of America, by the way. These games were developed entirely in Japan.
    As if we weren't used to presidents telling lies...
    Again the thing about dev tools was a common thing so it's reasonable, but the parts about promotion etc. is hard to believe looking at history. Maybe they are even in good faith when they say these things, but it means that they just have a limited vision of what happened around them at the time.
    For example back in the day some japanese devs didn't even know their games were sold in the rest of the world (and guess who make the ww release happen...) just to make another example.

    Takahashi like I said is even less reliable as a source with his grudge against Sega.

    Like I said multiple times now, you can find various Sega staff in supporting roles in many Treasure, Climax, Sonic! and Ancient games. How can you esplain this?
    Promotion especially ww back is the day was done directly by Sega.
    This means direct support, these are the facts.

    It's nothing like SOR4 where Dotemu just bought the SOR license and never seen Sega again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter View Post
    If you cared to post the sources...*snip*
    Gryson did provide sources, you're being a dumbass and are ignoring them. How about posting supporting sources of your own to support your imagined narrative. Put up or shut up.

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    Raging in the Streets bultje112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter View Post
    A really weak argument don't you think?

    Especially since the majority of people, the ones that now praise these fake Sega games around, are the same people that let Sega die and were too busy with Nintendo and Sony when the original SOR or PD were released...




    Strange I remember these were great games... wait we are now trashing these classics only to justify the existence of SOR4 and the other imitation games?
    no. these games got trashed back in the day and they still do today. if sor 3 is so much worse than sor 2, then how do you expect sega to create an amazing 4th one themselves? sega has made tons of shitty games back then and today.

    I for one HATE the enemies going off screen in all the early ones. they fixed that here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    The last Star Wars film grossed 775 million.

    The masses love crap. Popularity doesn't indicate quality.

    In this case it looks to have wound up being a profitable business decision.

    They shouldn't have titled it Streets of Rage 4 though. Just call Streets of Rage EXO NEO '20 or something.
    star wars episode 8 did amazing as well as in consumer reviews. I thought it was the best star wars movie maybe ever. star wars episode 9 got trashed and also bombed hard compared to 7 and 8 financially

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    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Virtua Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stu View Post
    Gryson did provide sources, you're being a dumbass and are ignoring them. How about posting supporting sources of your own to support your imagined narrative. Put up or shut up.
    I'm not ignoring them "dumbass", I'm countering them.
    We all have internet what kind of source you need? Just check games credits to see any kind of inhouse supporting or check old magazines and shows and you'll see that Sega offered lots of promotion to these games, that just contradict what the "source" says.

    Also since you're the one impolitely entering the discussion, why don't you counter yourself my "imagined narrative" without the help of your pal Gryson? Let's see if you can stand on your own two feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter View Post
    I'm not ignoring them "dumbass", I'm countering them.
    We all have internet what kind of source you need? Just check games credits to see any kind of inhouse supporting or check old magazines and shows and you'll see that Sega offered lots of promotion to these games, that just contradict what the "source" says.

    Also since you're the one impolitely entering the discussion, why don't you counter yourself my "imagined narrative" without the help of your pal Gryson? Let's see if you can stand on your own two feet.
    You really should form a better argument with Gryson. You really seem to keep trying to push a narrative that isn't matching up with how SEGA handled a lot of their IPs back in the day. The old SEGA is dead and gone. Just let it stay that way and try to support them so you can get some games you really want.
    05/05/15

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonusKun View Post
    You really should form a better argument with Gryson. You really seem to keep trying to push a narrative that isn't matching up with how SEGA handled a lot of their IPs back in the day. The old SEGA is dead and gone. Just let it stay that way and try to support them so you can get some games you really want.

    I think instead you all want to bring another kind of misleading narrative: "things were always the same and nothing has changed", so you can enjoy more these new indie licensed games pretending they are like the real thing.

    Sorry to ruin the party but that's not the case, Sega was different and IPs weren't handled in the poor way they are handled today, there is a reason why Sega was the leader back in the day and many of its games become timeless classics....good luck doing the same SOR4 and PD Remake.

    Since you all continue to dismiss my posts and it seems quotes are valid only if posted by Gryson, I'll post some "visual" examples:

    -Lack of promotion by Sega: companies were left alone with promotion support: FALSE

    who made these ads?





    let's see another example, at CES 94 Sega had Dynamite Headdy (Treasure), together with Shining Force 2 (Climax,Sonic) and Ecco 2 (novotrade)

    https://retrocdn.net/images/0/07/PlayerOne_FR_044.pdf (from Player One magazine, page 49)

    games from second parties were always given floor space by Sega in the most important shows at the time like CES or the Tokyo Toy/Games Show.

    so much for the "no promotion" statement, please explain this.


    -Lack of playtesting: FALSE

    Guardian Heroes (Treasure) has game testers from Sega
    https://segaretro.org/images/7/76/Gu..._us_manual.pdf (credits on US manual, page 22)


    -Lack of support:
    FALSE

    Streets of Rage 2 credits (Ancient)



    there would be no need to comment, but let's do anyway "special thanks: team streets of rage"

    what was the narrative? Yes, developers left alone...

    There are other examples but this is just to give a more "visual" idea of what we are taking about.
    Now do you still think it's strange to not believe everything that Maegawa and Takahashi stated in their probably heavily biased interviews?

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