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Thread: Low resolution mode (like X-Men, etc.): Why?

  1. #46
    Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Well the AGA chipset has 8 times the master palette of the SNES and it doesn't look any better, so it's not just a case of more colors = better, there are diminishing returns. The bump from 512 to 4096 is massive. 4096 to 32768 is a much smaller difference despite the absolute color difference being MUCH greater (4096 - 512 is a much smaller number than 32768 - 4096, you have wayyyyy more additional colors in the latter). Similarly, 262144 colors (AGA, VGA) vs 32768 (SNES) barely makes a difference, despite again the even more ridiculous difference. AGA has over TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND more colors to pick from

    A similar thing happens with palettes. going from 1, to 2, to 4, to 8 is a HUGE difference. 8 to 16 less so, 16 to 32 barely noticeable, and anything higher than 32 is honestly overkill. So the question is, which makes the biggest difference? Going from 4 to 8 palettes, or going from a 512 color to a 4096 color master palette?

    The 4 to 8 palette jump, always. It makes a HUGE difference, much bigger than 512 to 4096 for the master palette. This is even truer the less palettes you have because as Sik said, you are forced to use bigger jumps in color. The lower master palette might make the game slightly uglier but the fewer palettes actively limit what you can do with palette effects, how varied are the digitized graphics you can use, how you can use color to reflect gameplay situations.

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    Japanese Sonic CD FTW!!! Master of Shinobi Ecco's Avatar
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    Well re: Neptune: ultimately these conversations are pointless lol but I basically don’t see why Neptune couldn’t have worked out, if the market forces had been more supportive of the Genesis to go in that evolution.

    Both add ons have obviously proved their worth with at least some great games, including 32x, it has at least a small handful of great games. Virtua Racing, virtua fighter, afterburner etc

    So i think you guys are overly negative about Neptune ideas lol

    Also that time was just a chaotic time in video games... The future of gaming was still unclear, with a bunch of new powerful consoles being launched, as a new console race, but nobody knew where it was really heading. The new console race is probably the big reason Saturn rushed out.

    There was new competition like 3do, jaguar, n64 etc all around the same couple years.

    So I hope people realize it was basically chaos at that time. Sega was trying to guess the future of next gen consoles just like everyone was trying to figure it out.

    So it’s not like genesis was killed in a clear decision. It was killed more in the chaos of video game competition, and hardware wars, of that particular time.

    So I mean if there wasn’t that chaotic rush for next gen 3D hardware then sure genesis could have kept going on... heck SNES was still supported longer than genesis...

    And Neptune would theoretically streamline the redundancies that you guys mentioned re: 32x and scd wiring etc.

    We could have had another year or two of 32-bit games with thousands of colors...

    I wish that timeline had happened lol

  3. #48
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleste View Post
    That's what you already wrote when you said "It forces you to be more subdued with colors" but actually, the artistic outcome is definite. The example you make is perfect. One is garish, the other is masterful. Had the garish been the first one, anyone with an education in art would still prefer the second attempt by a mile. I thought it was a given, especially on this boards, than many many SNES iterations of previously released titles suffer from bad art caused by poor choice of the many colors available. Or worse, by adding colors for the sake of adding.



    The other way around did turn worse for a miriad factors (sprites allowed etc.), but the point here was another. Just because the megadrive can already display more colors on screen than an OCS or even an AGA in the demo you showed, means the Megadrive was positioned to have a larger benefit from the hypotethical scenario I was talking about. In other words, while the 16 colors of OCS couldn't have survived DKC, the fifty and more of Genesis could have produced something much better than, huh, Doom Troopers I guess, if the master palette had been up to the job. That's all I'm saying.
    If you actually go in and adapt assets from games/hardware with a massive master palette to 9-bit, you'll get a feel for just how fine 9-bit is for 16-bit console specs, that for every odd compromise that comes up there is at least one additional improvement for other aspects and most of all: just how priceless the number of sub-palettes is.

    It's not even close. You can port assets overall on par with 12-bit color, but 4 sub palettes is absolutely the main and functionally only real shortcoming assets-wise.

    Just the same, it doesn't take long to get a feel for how much of an improvement over SNES games you can make when you have more than 8 + 8 sub-palettes.

    These are all PCE spec/even integer RGB values conversions:










    Which one of these is SNES and one is PCE? If you can't tell, does it matter?






    You've got it upside down, the Genesis can win only when it does bombastic and garish a la Master System. Sonic and Gunstar are its paramount... Bright prime colors. Try dithering or subdued and you can never reach Darkmere or Hired Guns. It's exactly the opposite.
    lol, you need to try more SMS games. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  4. #49
    Master of Shinobi Pyron's Avatar
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    Amazing job on art conversion Black tiger.

    Visit my youtube channel Pyron's Lair
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    I actually generally liked the Turbografix colors more than SNES colors.

    TG colors were less odd than the ones used often on SNES. So TG had more earthy colors and stuff like that, while still showing off its huge color range.

    Too bad TG backgrounds tended to be rather plain so it generally looked far behind Genesis and SNES...

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    Master of Shinobi Pyron's Avatar
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    If we look to PCE, MD and Snes. PCE had better color balance overall.

    But even the PCE with a huge number of palletes at disposal, sadly is not well used by the majority of the Devs.

    Its is the main diference between 9-bit and 12 bit color, 12-bit is so deep thats any shade of color is easy to make gradients.
    Also is very easy to transpose the artwork, keep low values of brightness / contrast and allowed make a detailed artwork in almost any light range.

    So with 9 bit color you must had talent to deal with the limitations, guys like Black Tiger do it very well,
    now on snes.. is almost no skill required.. easy to go.

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  7. #52
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Meh

    The SNES palette was too big for most artists to use effectively. When you look closely at the colors used in games, it's clear that much of it was chosen randomly, like just using a curser on a color swatch or something.

    Other times too extreme of subtle shades are spammed on one aspect while others are mire rypical 16-bit looking (many System-16 games are guilty of this). It also stands out that once assets were complete, scenes weren't balanced.

    With all of that said, there is still a lot of nicely colored SNES games and lots of very nice asoects of productions that are more of a mixed bag.

    Also, just as MD and PCE games rarely made good use of their color potential, the same is still true of SNES games to a lesser extent. SNES games could still strike a good balance to match or mimick peak color use of MD and PCE potential, but there are still the other compromises in the mix, like low variety of sprites and sprite sizes and that 8-bit looking HUD layer.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  8. #53
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Aleste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    Well the AGA chipset has 8 times the master palette of the SNES and it doesn't look any better, so it's not just a case of more colors = better, there are diminishing returns. The bump from 512 to 4096 is massive. 4096 to 32768 is a much smaller difference despite the absolute color difference being MUCH greater (4096 - 512 is a much smaller number than 32768 - 4096, you have wayyyyy more additional colors in the latter). Similarly, 262144 colors (AGA, VGA) vs 32768 (SNES) barely makes a difference, despite again the even more ridiculous difference. AGA has over TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND more colors to pick from
    Yes, you have noticed I never mentioned AGA, in fact I don't quite consider it a videogaming technology. Its application came far too late, and had a lot of issues which basically meant that the majority of titles were little more than OCS games with a minor facelift. It's not worthy of discussion more than 32X or similar technology with little or no impact at all. To have 12bit color in 1985 was one thing; the AGA didn't break any new grounds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    If you actually go in and adapt assets from games/hardware with a massive master palette to 9-bit, you'll get a feel for just how fine 9-bit is for 16-bit console specs, that for every odd compromise that comes up there is at least one additional improvement for other aspects and most of all: just how priceless the number of sub-palettes is.

    It's not even close. You can port assets overall on par with 12-bit color, but 4 sub palettes is absolutely the main and functionally only real shortcoming assets-wise.
    Sure, in the world of existing 16-bit consoles, that proved to be the best environment. However, it's still make ends meet. Western software devs got the Amiga, then Deluxe Paint, and they didn't look backwards to that. Trying to get the most from a 9bit palette is a fine skill akin to retro pixelarts. I didn't make the example of the PCEngine because, well, it already exists and is awesome (as your examples show). I was talking of something that didn't exist: a Megadrive, but with a 12bit palette. Imagine a Thunderforce IV but with Agony or Rico Holmes backgrounds. Fast, with tons of sprites on screen, double or triple the colors on screen than an OCS, but with the same color depth and gamut. You're correct that home consumer environment had to make most of cheap 9bit palettes, with impressive results when subpalettes were helping. However, one needs to look no further than most of the arcade PCBs of the time, with their 4096 colors, to understand that 12bit color palette (and not subpalettes) was the achille's heel in Megadrive launch: the key element that made Juooki and the likes excellent ports but still very distinguishable from the arcade counterparts.

    Pyron is also absolutely right that with the SNES you reach the plateau, so color paradoxically becomes less important compared to other factors... The absolute power in color that the machine could muster has given life to many of the games of that era that I find aesthetically most unpleasant, precisely because developers had no more limitations to overcome and got "color blind" as to what constituted an organic use of color in the images.
    Last edited by Aleste; 05-14-2020 at 03:58 PM.

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    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Aleste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    So the question is, which makes the biggest difference? Going from 4 to 8 palettes, or going from a 512 color to a 4096 color master palette?

    The 4 to 8 palette jump, always. It makes a HUGE difference, much bigger than 512 to 4096 for the master palette.
    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    for every odd compromise that comes up there is at least one additional improvement for other aspects and most of all: just how priceless the number of sub-palettes is.

    It's not even close. You can port assets overall on par with 12-bit color, but 4 sub palettes is absolutely the main and functionally only real shortcoming assets-wise.
    I respond to both of your statements: your view is very gaming-centered and console-centered. Of course, things aren't really that way. For one, computer gaming makes a much greater use of static images, or if you want, less parallax levels and such. Again, have a look here: http://amiga.lychesis.net/game.html
    It seems from the examples you are posting that your gaming nirvana is something like Seiken Densetsu 3, but actually people back in those years were also playing stuff like Day of the Tentacle, The Dig... The road to Myst is paved with the aim of this kind of graphical fidelity. So yeah, the answer most definitely is not "the 4 to 8 palette jump, always". That's the answer only in the very limited cases you are describing, like being a skilled craftman that makes the most out of a PCE to reach a Snes-quality level of color and detail in sprite-based action games.

    Look at these:

    http://amiga.lychesis.net/colors/32.html

    It's all in 32 colors. Many of them aren't static images for illustration purposes only, but actual elements of gameplay (backgrounds, level maps). Of course to achieve this quality you need to carefully select your 32 colors from 4096. Else, it fails. Now imagine a Megadrive having access to this kind of color depth in 1988... With some sprite magic, it could have achieved near these levels of quality:

    http://amiga.lychesis.net/colors/64.html
    Last edited by Aleste; 05-14-2020 at 04:21 PM.

  10. #55
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleste View Post
    Sure, in the world of existing 16-bit consoles, that proved to be the best environment. However, it's still make ends meet. Western software devs got the Amiga, then Deluxe Paint, and they didn't look backwards to that. Trying to get the most from a 9bit palette is a fine skill akin to retro pixelarts. I didn't make the example of the PCEngine because, well, it already exists and is awesome (as your examples show). I was talking of something that didn't exist: a Megadrive, but with a 12bit palette. Imagine a Thunderforce IV but with Agony or Rico Holmes backgrounds. Fast, with tons of sprites on screen, double or triple the colors on screen than an OCS, but with the same color depth and gamut. You're correct that home consumer environment had to make most of cheap 9bit palettes, with impressive results when subpalettes were helping. However, one needs to look no further than most of the arcade PCBs of the time, with their 4096 colors, to understand that 12bit color palette (and not subpalettes) was the achille's heel in Megadrive launch: the key element that made Juooki and the likes excellent ports but still very distinguishable from the arcade counterparts..
    I think you missed the point being made here by quite a few; trying to fit mores colors into less (on screen) is more difficult than finding the right color swatches in larger master palette to a smaller master palette. The Genesis doesn't have 64-do-with-whatever-you-want pixels. Without any tricks, including raster or shadow/highlight, it's extremely difficult to hit that top threshold. Most Genesis games are in the 30-40 color range, but if you remove frivolous colors from that count, it's much smaller. The only saving grace to the Megadrive's technical limitation with subpalettes, is that Sega allowed both background graphics and sprite graphics to access the same 4 sub palettes. That allows for a little more breathing room.

    I think it's apparent you don't understand the limitation of working with subpalettes. A larger master palette would help, over that current setup, but the Genesis is NOT the amiga. It doesn't 'copper' and doesn't have a lot of the flexibilities that come with the Amiga. For all those beautiful pics, I've played Amiga games. Games.. the vast majority have seriously color limitations that they over come with tricks.. lending it to that look of "amiga" graphics. I'm sorry, but Agony might have good graphics for the Amiga, but that'd be trash for the 16 bit era. Don't get me wrong, being a coder that loves to push a system I love these old examples, but let's face it... Agony is 1bit graphics with a dull hue change down the screen. There's no color fidelity there. So yeah, the washed out look help lend it to an overcast view, or whatever, and 12bit allows dithering and low color counts do blend better - but at the expense of color fidelity. Just look at Chuck Rock?!

    There was a post that showed SegaCD Fight Fight against the arcade reduced down to 60 colors with a 9bit palette.. and it looks gorgeous. Had the Megadrive had 8 more subpalettes, it would easily be close to that or even exceed it. The different from 4 to 8 is an exponential increase in color fidelity. The 9bit master palette isn't even really being hit as a limitation because of the restricted color implementations. I need to see if I can find that pic.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a 12bit master palette wouldn't help.. just that it's not the immediate hindrance you think it is. The color limitations needs to breath a little first, before running into that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleste View Post
    I respond to both of your statements: your view is very gaming-centered and console-centered. Of course, things aren't really that way. For one, computer gaming makes a much greater use of static images, or if you want, less parallax levels and such. Again, have a look here: http://amiga.lychesis.net/game.html
    It seems from the examples you are posting that your gaming nirvana is something like Seiken Densetsu 3, but actually people back in those years were also playing stuff like Day of the Tentacle, The Dig... The road to Myst is paved with the aim of this kind of graphical fidelity. So yeah, the answer most definitely is not "the 4 to 8 palette jump, always". That's the answer only in the very limited cases you are describing, like being a skilled craftman that makes the most out of a PCE to reach a Snes-quality level of color and detail in sprite-based action games.

    Look at these:

    http://amiga.lychesis.net/colors/32.html

    It's all in 32 colors. Many of them aren't static images for illustration purposes only, but actual elements of gameplay (backgrounds, level maps). Of course to achieve this quality you need to carefully select your 32 colors from 4096. Else, it fails. Now imagine a Megadrive having access to this kind of color depth in 1988... With some sprite magic, it could have achieved near these levels of quality:

    http://amiga.lychesis.net/colors/64.html
    The linked Amiga images are very interesting but what you guys never acknowledge is that the 32x should be able to actually do everything you're saying AFAIK.

    It had so much potential especially to imagine a Neptune with Sega CD, you could have full color movies, cartoons, etc. not to mention 32-bit games with thousands of colors...

    I wish it happened that way but like I said, I just think the time was very confusing and chaotic in the console competition, and that's why everything happened as it did, so chaotically.

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    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Aleste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    I think you missed the point being made here by quite a few; trying to fit mores colors into less (on screen) is more difficult than finding the right color swatches in larger master palette to a smaller master palette. The Genesis doesn't have 64-do-with-whatever-you-want pixels. Without any tricks, including raster or shadow/highlight, it's extremely difficult to hit that top threshold. Most Genesis games are in the 30-40 color range, but if you remove frivolous colors from that count, it's much smaller.
    I don't understand why you get the impression that I'm not aware of this, since I wrote largely in the count of "double or so" the 16 OCS colors, and never "64". I perfectly understand the constraints of the system, maybe it is you that are overstating an Amiga 500 usual output in videogames? I assure you that not everything on amiga is blitter and copper, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    I think it's apparent you don't understand the limitation of working with subpalettes. A larger master palette would help, over that current setup, but the Genesis is NOT the amiga. It doesn't 'copper' and doesn't have a lot of the flexibilities that come with the Amiga. For all those beautiful pics, I've played Amiga games. Games.. the vast majority have seriously color limitations that they over come with tricks.. lending it to that look of "amiga" graphics. I'm sorry, but Agony might have good graphics for the Amiga, but that'd be trash for the 16 bit era. Don't get me wrong, being a coder that loves to push a system I love these old examples, but let's face it... Agony is 1bit graphics with a dull hue change down the screen. There's no color fidelity there. So yeah, the washed out look help lend it to an overcast view, or whatever, and 12bit allows dithering and low color counts do blend better - but at the expense of color fidelity. Just look at Chuck Rock?!
    Sorry but here you aren't following me. Let's take the average amiga game™: a Chuck Rock screenshot. Well, the Megadrive already can top it with more colors right off the bat: it could be even better with 12bit palette (except that Chuck Rock's style wouldn't require that at all). Regardless of whether 9bit is "hit as a limitation": the point is not to have as much colors as possible on the screen, but to have access to the right ones. I linked to pretty images, but never I said "Oh with a 12bit palette the megadrive would get copper, blitter, and Agony-like stuff. Actually, what I wanted to point out at that site is something like the Flood (Bullfrog, 1990) image. Click comparison and see the same image treated from 12bit Amiga palette and 9bit Atari ST palette. No "tricks" around here.

    Ecco was lamenting the dithering in Eternal Champions: the Flood comparison goes a long way to explain the immediate benefit of having access to 12bit palette. It was a purely matter of costs, since in 1987 the (Motorola-based) Sharp X68000 debuted with a 16bit palette. Of course, for its price you could have bought a van full of Sega Megadrives.

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    There was a post that showed SegaCD Fight Fight against the arcade reduced down to 60 colors with a 9bit palette.. and it looks gorgeous.
    I don't doubt that for a minute, because that game (I imagine you're talking of Capcom's Final Fight?) is an arcade game, with arcade style aesthetics, and for these kind of aesthetics you are already cool with a great mastery of 9bit palette: I wrote this before. I was talking about an entirely different era and sensibility: the late life of megadrive, when Novotrade came out with the "photorealistic" Jurassic Park LW, or when DICE was going to release the "muted, subdued, shaded" approach at game graphics: Ultracore/Hardcore, so reminiscent of Amiga works by Rico Holmes (again, blitter or copper tricks have nothing to do with this). I said that having a 12bit palette would have helped in those cases: rendering, ray tracing, DKC, Vectorman and such.
    I'm perfectly aware that Cody and Guy work wonders in 9bit. As a matter of fact, I truly love them in Mighty Final Fight also, so...

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying that a 12bit master palette wouldn't help.. just that it's not the immediate hindrance you think it is. The color limitations needs to breath a little first, before running into that.
    Well, the fact that in 1990 Sega debuted the Game Gear, roughly one year after the Megadrive experience, and it basically amounts to a Master System with 12bit palette surely shows that at least at Sega they saw the hindrance. My point is: imagine if, capitalizing the success of the Sonic The Hedgehog launch in 1991, Sega had released a Genesis "Pro", a bit like Playstation Pro if you want: same hardware but 12bit color depth...
    (yeah, I'm perfectly aware that in the short term that would've been folly, since the bitmap style favoured simple images and bright colors and many of the most pleasing games were even made in low-res mode... It would have made absolutely NO difference for the Sonic, the Shinings, and so on. But then... In 1995 and 1996, it would have been potentially better than bizarre add-ons.
    Last edited by Aleste; 05-14-2020 at 06:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecco View Post
    The linked Amiga images are very interesting but what you guys never acknowledge is that the 32x should be able to actually do everything you're saying AFAIK.

    It had so much potential especially to imagine a Neptune with Sega CD, you could have full color movies, cartoons, etc. not to mention 32-bit games with thousands of colors...
    I think noone denies all the graphical potential prowess, just the bad timing, again, a bit like the AGA chipset. Sure, the 32X could do a lot of things but it arrived at the point where there was a major shift in taste and expectations, and people wanted "those other things" instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleste View Post
    I think noone denies all the graphical potential prowess, just the bad timing, again, a bit like the AGA chipset. Sure, the 32X could do a lot of things but it arrived at the point where there was a major shift in taste and expectations, and people wanted "those other things" instead.
    ^Well maybe I was misunderstanding your statements but it seemed like you're saying, "just imagine if the Genesis could do this," ...yet the Genesis certainly could do such pictures and more, with the 32x. So, it's not like a vague idea, for the Genesis to be able to make such pictures. It could with the 32x... which didn't really do it anyway.

    But anyway I was probably taking your posts wrong or something...

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    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Aleste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecco View Post
    ^Well maybe I was misunderstanding your statements but it seemed like you're saying, "just imagine if the Genesis could do this," ...yet the Genesis certainly could do such pictures and more, with the 32x. So, it's not like a vague idea, for the Genesis to be able to make such pictures. It could with the 32x... which didn't really do it anyway.

    But anyway I was probably taking your posts wrong or something...
    Ah yes okay, I get what you're saying but I was more humble than that... Just a motorola 68000 with a better palette
    The 32X allows Genesis to do much more, but it comes with its own processors so it's for all intents and purposes its own machine. It's a bit like when you read of all the amazing things the Amiga did with the Video Toaster, only to find out that it's basically Video Toaster that was making those things, not the Amiga xD.

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