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Thread: 2nd generation console discussion(Intellivision, Colecovision, 2600, Odyssey 2)

  1. #271
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Man the Atari 8bit version is hideous... as are many other games for it.

    Why the intellivision version is that slow, I don't know. Probably using EXEC and running at 20 fps. Either way that would be the same as judging the Dreamcast by the Windows CE based games.
    On the other hand, saying it's just slightly above the Atari 2600 is... well... that game also came out for it:



    The Intellivision is MILES ahead, even with the shitty framerate.
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    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    How many Intellivision games back then relied on EXEC? From what I recall using Windows CE wasn't the norm in the case of Dreamcast (despite what the marketing may have made people think), but EXEC seems to have played a much more important role with Intellivision.

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    Most games developed by Mattel themselves used the EXEC. But other companies weren't meant to use it, it was completely undocumented. Mattel even tried to break third party games that tried to use the EXEC by changing it slightly for the Intellivision 2 (and even breaking one of their games in the process).

    The EXEC was a big deal for Mattel because it allowed them to develop games very cheaply. It's less an "Operating System" but more a game engine packed with the console. The cart just provided the game logic and the EXEC took care of managing interrupts, tiles, sprites, etc.

    In a way the Intellivision is the antithesis of the 2600.

    Whereas the 2600 expects you to do everything, to the point you need to run code in sync with the video beam to accomplish anything, the Intellivision is designed to do everything itself as much as possible.

    Not only is the hardware extremely WYSIWYG (you can't even do raster effects), but the Intellivision includes over 256 builtin tiles, builtin sound effects, math routines (even square root o_O), and of course the EXEC "game engine".
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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    And that's why a good portion of Intellivision titles have the same generic explosion sounds and other effects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    Man the Atari 8bit version is hideous... as are many other games for it.
    What do you mean by many other games for it?

    The Intellivision is MILES ahead, even with the shitty framerate.
    I'm pretty sure that was a 4K cart and a cash-in title for the pubslisher.

    Yes it is miles better, but then you have a game like Lock N' Chase that isn't like twice as nice (2600 version is missing the doors though), and really Mattel could have put a little more effort into those enemy sprites. Really, to me the Intellivision is like the Vic-20 (The 2600 is the Spectrum) of consoles. It wasn't going to blow you away, but it got the job done.



    Last edited by gamevet; 01-26-2020 at 12:26 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    And that's why a good portion of Intellivision titles have the same generic explosion sounds and other effects.




    What do you mean by many other games for it?



    I'm pretty sure that was a 4K cart and a cash-in title for the pubslisher.

    Yes it is miles better, but then you have a game like Lock N' Chase that isn't like twice as nice (2600 version is missing the doors though), and really Mattel could have put a little more effort into those enemy sprites. Really, to me the Intellivision is like the Vic-20 (The 2600 is the Spectrum) of consoles. It wasn't going to blow you away, but it got the job done.



    I mean given the difference between those two video, I'd say the Intelli version definitely looks at least twice as nice! Even if it's not pushing the console hardware, it's definitely a lot better than the 2600 version shown.

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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    The Atari 8bit has a lot of games with hideous color choices. For every gorgeous looking game there are two that look terrible. Tutankham is a good example of hideous colors.
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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Yeah, I never undersood some of the decisions programmers made with color choices on the Atari 8-bit computers. They could have went with blue or red for those walls.

    I know I have a knock of version of Tutankham on the C64, I think it's called Lady Tut. I don't think the youtube videos I've seen of it are the same game I have on one of my 100s of disks.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  8. #278
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    One rumor I heard somewhere is that at least for the Polish Atari 8bit games (it was really popular in Poland for some reason), was that color TVs were quite rare there at at the time. So devs kinda "guessed" at the colors, with "interesting" results. No idea if this is actually the case or not.

    A similar but unfortunate issue are games with lazy color choices. Games like Draconus which have monochromatic backgrounds. They could at least do the Lionheart thing and plaster a gradient all over the screen, or use a bit more color variety per screen, but nope... just a bland 3 shades of the same color for everything.
    Last edited by Kamahl; 01-26-2020 at 02:51 PM.
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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Those D&D games were hardly what I'd call good examples of scrolling, no matter how many directions they had. I doubt any of them were more than 8, despite the controller offering 16 directions. And most side scrollers only had to scroll in one direction.
    You're just showing your unfamiliarity with the library again. Only Cloudy Mountain scrolls.


    Here are some 16-directional scrolling games:















    The developer cheaped out on full 16 directions of frames for the car, but you can see how the player still gets to move in all directions:





    This video is poor quality but it is the best at showing the full directional scrolling:









    River Raid was not a single color. It had blue water and green land.
    Every 8 x 8 tile onscreen that contains any pixelart will require frames of animation to animate. Most of the screen in the Colecovision version is solid single color tiles which require no frames as there is no pixelart. Only the seam where the water meets the green needs to animate. The objects in the water are likely all sprites to save space and because you don't have the horizontal bottleneck. Notice the trees in the Intellivision version? That kind of detail would require frames of animation on Colecovision.



    Defender scrolls just fine in 2 directions on the CV.

    Another good example where only the mountain outline and the two or three star variations require any animation.






    You keep intentionally cherry picking random shovelware to somehow prove that the Intellivision isn't doing what it does throughout the rest of the library. I'll say it again, bad shovelware on Genesis doesn't prove the superiority of the SNES or that the Genesis is just bad at anything. It only proves that that bad port was published.


    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Now, look at these 3 versions of Centipede from Atari for the Intellevision, ColecoVision and 5200. The 5200 nails the sound (the arcade game is using simular sound hardware), but, I'd say that the CV version actually improves the graphics. Intellevision version? Pfff! Tthere isn't a single arcade game from the time that looked or played better on the Intellevison. It just looked way outclassed by the 5200 and CV.



    Why would you compare Centipede without including one of Intellivision's killer apps that just happens to be Centipede on steroids?

    How about a version of Centipede with 60+ animated enemies onscreen at once, with a large multi-colored animated player sprite shooting huge projectiles, with fast 16-directional movement... all at 60fps?






    Worm Whomper demonstrates how much Commando style games benefit from 16-directional movement.






    That's not smooth scrolling BTW.
    I guess everyone should just stop trying explain what scrolling and tile shuffling actually is as it's hopeless lost on you and you don't understand what you are looking at in videos. Hover Force can't even be pulled off on Colecovision today.




    There's always excuses in this thread with the Intellivision for direct comparisons of the day, but the reality was that it couldn't compete with the CV or 5200 in arcade ports.
    Again you are intentionally ignoring what has been discussed and the actual history of these consoles. Intellivision was created to feature a library of innovative original software and early on Mattel Electronics had a no-ports/no-arcade-style games policy. The Colecovision had a priority to pump out arcade ports and arcade style games. It's like comparing Genesis and SNES only by RPGs.

    Yet there are still lots of great arcade style games, great arcade ports, ports in general and many control and play better on Intellivision. You are obsessing over superficial aesthetics and championing a glut of arcade games with compromise gameplay and dismissing Intellivision games that legitimately play great and are more enjoyable.

    Why aren't you comparing all of the original software or better yet, games that were innovative or remain unique to this day?



    I'm pretty sure that was a 4K cart and a cash-in title for the pubslisher.
    This pretty much sums up your blinders. After all of your previous comparisons were shovelware and against smaller sized Intellivision roms.

    I'm sure that the irony of this comment in a post comparing Lock 'n Chase is lost on you.
    Last edited by Black_Tiger; 01-27-2020 at 01:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  10. #280
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    I'm not going to waste a lot of time picking each subject, because it's not worth it.

    I've heard of Space Spartans, and it looks like a really cool rip-off of Star Raiders. I'm not sure if I'm really seeing 16 different degrees of scrolling, but what is there is pretty sparce anyways.

    The Dreadnaught Factor was a game on 8-bit computers. It's definitely inferior to the 5200 and XL versions of the game, and I find it really odd that they changed the movement to horizontal. I'm not seeing much of a difference in degrees of scrolling either.



    I'm certainly not seeing anything spectacular (Mud Buggies has some nice graphics though( with those racing games, other than they are way too slow. Racig Destruction Set was a hell of a lot more impressive. Yeah, I can see possibly extra degrees of movement in Safe Cracker, but it's really just making everything look unstable and clunky.



    And River Raid has more than just Rivers and green land. There's bridges and roadways along the way, and the river banks wind and split up.

    Well, you chose to blow off Defender, and don't acknowledge the far superior version of Moon Patrol on the Colecovision that includes 3 layers of parallax scrolling and much better graphics than that lego looking Intellivision version.

    Let's ignore that the 2600 had analog paddles with more degrees of motion than that clunky Intellivision disc. Worm Womper is pretty much a sideways paddle game with an added movement of X,Y, in addition to A,B. I'm not even seeing how you can put that boring looking game in the same category as Defender. And if Worm Womper is considered a killer app for the system, you're not selling me on it's library. Space Spartans, on the other hand, is a killer app, as was B-17 Bomber.

    ATARISOFT is not shovelware!

    And as far as Lock N' Chase goes, have you ever seen the arcade game?

    The gap between the arcade game and the Intellivison game, is much larger than that between the 2600 game and the Intellivision game. Tutenkham on the 2600 was a garbage effort at best, while the CBS version of Omega Race was a real effort at making a quality game for the console.

    Last edited by gamevet; 01-26-2020 at 10:31 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #281
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Here are some 16-directional scrolling games:
    You keep bringing this up, but I still don't see how it's a big deal. The Intellivision was designed to scroll in 16 directions in tandem with its controller being designed to go in 16 directions. It's beneficial for some games, no doubt. But weren't we talking about console generations? It's hard for me to see 16-way movement as "next-gen" when zero consoles of the next 2-3 generations had it.

    If Atari had felt that the Intellivision's 16-way controller gave it a lasting edge over the 5200, they had a clear opportunity to correct that with their "do-over" console, the 7800. Instead, their takeaway from the 5200's poorly-received, high defective rate controller was that they needed to simplify. The 7800 controller didn't turn out great but you can see what they were going for.

    I'm not aware of a single controller for any other platform that has 16 directions digitally. It seems no one in the industry felt it was something that needed to be replicated.

    Why would you compare Defender without including one of Intellivision's killer apps that just happens to be Defender on steroids?

    How about a version of Defender with 60+ animated enemies onscreen at once, with a large multi-colored animated player sprite shooting huge projectiles, with fast 16-directional movement... all at 60fps?

    Does this game ever scroll? Not seeing it in the video.
    Last edited by j_factor; 01-26-2020 at 11:58 PM.


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  12. #282
    Master of Shinobi Thenewguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    A similar but unfortunate issue are games with lazy color choices. Games like Draconus which have monochromatic backgrounds. They could at least do the Lionheart thing and plaster a gradient all over the screen, or use a bit more color variety per screen, but nope... just a bland 3 shades of the same color for everything.
    I think the game looked reasonable on the Atari, especially the brown/orange sections. The Spectrum version suffered worse IMO

    Biggest problems with these systems here was the development environment really. The games were too cheap and disposable, I mean how much was Draconus when it was brand new? 2.99? I know that was what it cost when it came out on Spectrum and C64.

    It was an environment of strict deadlines and no money to invest in larger projects with bigger teams of professionals, instead you got two or three guys, one of whom designed the gameplay, programmed it and did the artwork a lot of the time and another maybe did the music. Development time was three months if you were lucky, sometimes as little as a week. Publishers who didn't give a shit about the product were the norm, how long extra was it that the C64 programmer of Salamander said he asked for so that he could finish the game with all the levels? something like 2 weeks?

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    You keep bringing this up, but I still don't see how it's a big deal. The Intellivision was designed to scroll in 16 directions in tandem with its controller being designed to go in 16 directions. It's beneficial for some games, no doubt. But weren't we talking about console generations? It's hard for me to see 16-way movement as "next-gen" when zero consoles of the next 2-3 generations had it.

    If Atari had felt that the Intellivision's 16-way controller gave it a lasting edge over the 5200, they had a clear opportunity to correct that with their "do-over" console, the 7800. Instead, their takeaway from the 5200's poorly-received, high defective rate controller was that they needed to simplify. The 7800 controller didn't turn out great but you can see what they were going for.

    I'm not aware of a single controller for any other platform that has 16 directions digitally. It seems no one in the industry felt it was something that needed to be replicated.



    Does this game ever scroll? Not seeing it in the video.
    Sorry, I wrote Defender when I was responding to a Centipede comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thenewguy View Post
    I mean how much was Draconus when it was brand new? 2.99? I know that was what it cost when it came out on Spectrum and C64.
    Wow then you guys had it pretty good across the pond! I don't ever remember new games for that cheap hahah

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    Master of Shinobi Thenewguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    Wow then you guys had it pretty good across the pond! I don't ever remember new games for that cheap hahah
    Atari Draconus really represented value for money back in the day, but games like Draconus were very much a minority, an exception to the rule.

    When I was a kid my brother literally owned 50 odd budget games he'd purchased in that price bracket during the mid 80s. I just looked through them and actually the situation was worse than I thought, out of those 50 odd games only three were played, Booty, Crazy Caverns, and Zub.

    Generally you got your budget game, you played it once or twice, and then it was thrown into a box of other crappy budget games.

    Things changed a lot later on though when Code Masters turned up, maybe 1 in 3 Code Masters games had entertainment value, and some of those were as good as the full priced games. Then you had the budget re-releases of older full priced games starting in the 90s (sort of like "platinum" or "greatest hits" releases) those were excellent value for money.

    As I said before though, you get what you pay for so even when you have a fun full-priced game (around 10 on Spectrum and C64 Tape, ~15 for C64 Disk, or ~20 for C64 cartridge) you're putting up with it having poor graphics or sound, or it'll be very short or missing levels (often leading to the difficulty being ramped up to increase longevity), or it'll be confusing or buggy due to little play-testing etc etc.

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