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Thread: 2nd generation console discussion(Intellivision, Colecovision, 2600, Odyssey 2)

  1. #286
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Yeah the vast majority of 8bit computer games were... well... very budget. I'm really thankful for the homebrew scene for giving these machines high quality games.

    Especially for the Amstrad CPC. Its library is full of bad spectrum ports, 5 fps games or games that just play like crap. It's the Amiga/ST situation only 10x worse since the Amstrad was never that popular. Homebrew games though are really freaking good. Invasion of the Zombie Monsters, Bubble Bobble, Super Edge Grinder, R-Type, Star Sabre, Sub Hunter, Pinball Dreams, Operation Alexandra, Legend of Steel, etc. From a rather forgettable machine to one of the best 8bit computers to own.
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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Here is a direct capture of his Castlevania port that I recorded from real hardware:


    I was actually playing this. Its a very good port, feels like it was done by 1st party.

    But it definitely shows the Intellivision is quite below the NES. Theres countless downgrades like low frames of animation, single-colour sprites, backgrounds are nowhere as detailed.

    But still, this is like The Witcher 3 being ported to the PS3.
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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Uh....the Intellivision version of River Raid was the choppiest version on consoles. The sound effects are the worst of the bunch as well. The explosions are the generic sound you'd get in most games for the console. Hell, even the 2600 had better explosion sounds in this game.







    So, aren't we gonna play the game of "which port is the best"?


    Heres a ColecoVision video with better quality:

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    Master of Shinobi Thenewguy's Avatar
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    Time with 8-bit computer games has cemented in my mind that the Amstrad didn't really get any more of a raw deal than any of the other main computers of the era, whatever you had the vast majority of games you experienced were nowhere near approaching optimal. Thankfully, when there's thousands of games for a system all it take is 5% of them being polished for there to be 100s of good games

    Those Spectrum ports that Amstrad fanboys complain about incessantly were often made like crap for the Spectrum to begin with and were likely barely more optimised for that system than the Amstrad anyway, just a whole load of lowest common denominator releases.

    Also, some of the Amstrad games you mentioned are 128k only, those wouldn't have been market viable in the 80s.

    How many 2D Spectrum games were needlessly in monochrome? Shameful amounts.

    How many Spectrum games used 8x8 movement in comparison to MSX games from the same era? hardly any. This method had already been showcased by Hudsonsoft on Spectrum at the beginning of 1984 in Stop the Express, yet it was barely used again until Dave Perry brought it back in the late 80s. Sure its not always wise to use it, but in certain games, such as those with large characters it can work very well, Kung Fu Master for example is one game I think should've been done like this on the Spectrum.
    Last edited by Thenewguy; 01-28-2020 at 02:26 PM.

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    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    For the record, MSX also got a lot of shitty ports from Spectrum (which often were themselves shitty ports). And by that I mean ports, with absolutely no attempt to see if at least the colors could be shuffled around or more than one sound channel could be used (if there was even sound, often it was more like a series of clicks instead) or, you know, actually using the arrow keys instead of QAOP. It was like MSX emulating a Spectrum. I'm going to assume this was in Europe (since MSX had managed to get a small market there).

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  6. #291
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    At least for the Spectrum I can think of some pretty decent games that were released back in the day: The R-Type port was about as good as you could ask for from the platform; Rex was just awesome in general; Cobra had lovely smooth scrolling and even basic parallax at 25fps with pretty sweet gameplay; Myth on the spectrum may even be better than the C64 version; Stormlord wasn't a great game but the spectrum port was excellent.

    What did the CPC have? Pre-Star Sabre most people thought it couldn't even handle any decent scrolling. C64 had some pretty sweet games as did the Atari 800 and the MSX, nothing on the quality of the NES/SMS but still decent. The CPC? Can't really think of anything that I would say "I want that" before homebrew showed what the platform could do.

    The 128k makes a huge difference, more so than the Spectrum (one might argue having music is more important, but I mean what the machine can do with that extra RAM), but some of the new games work on the base machine like Operation Alexandra.
    Last edited by Kamahl; 01-28-2020 at 04:41 PM.
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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    So, aren't we gonna play the game of "which port is the best"?


    Heres a ColecoVision video with better quality:


    I canít see the video. I was more interested in showing that the Colecovision could do scrolling just fine with the right developer. Matt from Atarisoft days was the guy that programmed the excellent Moon Patrol. The game certainly looked better than the version I got on the C64. The game was completed, when Atari shut down all publishing.

    He said that Atarisoft didnít use Colecoís buggy bios and that they had created their own code so that they could get around any legal action from Coleco. Atari didnít pay any money to Coleco to publish games on the console.

    https://atariage.com/forums/topic/22...lder/#comments
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  8. #293
    Master of Shinobi Thenewguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    At least for the Spectrum I can think of some pretty decent games that were released back in the day
    The Freescape games (Driller, Total Eclipse et al) were made for Amstrad IIRC, they were as "fast" on the Amstrad as they were on Spectrum, but in colour too. Dave Perry's games were generally fine (including his excellent Wally Week games), the Rafaelle Cecco games (Cybernoid, Exolon, and even the Amstrad version of Stormlord) were comparable to the other versions, those mediocre-ish but inexpensive budget platformers made by Hi-Tec (Turbo the Tortoise, Scrappy Doo, Potsworth & Co etc etc) were all arguably best on Amstrad out of the 8-bits, IIRC the racers like Chase HQ, Continental Circus were okay (basically the Spectrum versions in colour).

    There were also a handful of originals, Spindizzy and Sorcery being the most notable.

    Most of the French and Spanish games seem like they were designed for the Amstrad

    Ports that somewhat held their own in comparison to what the Spectrum and C64 were doing at the time; Rick Dangerous, Ikari Warriors, Prince of Persia, Robocop, Renegade and Target Renegade, Spherical, Puzznic, Feud, Motos, Sim City, Split Personalities, Gauntlet, Klax, X-Out etc etc. Contra was better than the C64 and Spectrum versions, Rainbow Islands was reasonable, Shinobi was arguably fine, Total Recall was the best version, Batman: The Movie was no more cut down than the other 8-bit versions, Turrican turned out okay given the Amstrad hardware, most of the isometric games had more colours (though no attempt at really optimising their usage).

    Then there were a lot of very basic early games similar to Atari 2600 style games that were reasonable for the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    Myth on the spectrum may even be better than the C64 version
    Agree with you about MYTH, quite like the Spectrum game, never liked the C64 one, too confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    Pre-Star Sabre most people thought it couldn't even handle any decent scrolling.
    It can't, it took them 20 years to do this, and half the time they're using the irrelevant 128k machines

    Heh, being less flippant though, this depends on what you mean by "decent scrolling" I've seen some people say Stormlord and the Dave Perry games have better than decent scrolling, whilst to others anything under 50fps is unacceptably choppy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The 128k makes a huge difference, more so than the Spectrum (one might argue having music is more important, but I mean what the machine can do with that extra RAM), but some of the new games work on the base machine like Operation Alexandra.
    Anyone in 1987 choosing to buy a 128k Green-screen Amstrad over the Atari ST for the sake of saving £15 needed their head examined
    Last edited by Thenewguy; 02-18-2020 at 07:40 PM.

  9. #294
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I canít see the video. I was more interested in showing that the Colecovision could do scrolling just fine with the right developer. Matt from Atarisoft days was the guy that programmed the excellent Moon Patrol. The game certainly looked better than the version I got on the C64. The game was completed, when Atari shut down all publishing.

    He said that Atarisoft didnít use Colecoís buggy bios and that they had created their own code so that they could get around any legal action from Coleco. Atari didnít pay any money to Coleco to publish games on the console.

    https://atariage.com/forums/topic/22...lder/#comments
    There were no "third parties"/licensing bitd. Atari, Mattel and Coleco all tried to stop anyone else from publishing games for their hardware.

    Colecovision copying the Intellivision design right down to including a bios helped them stave off the kind of glut of crap software that Atari suffered and took down the overall market with it.

    It wasn't that they made it more difficult to develop for Intellivision and Colecovision. Publishers can't just give their word that they didn't touch any copyrighted assets in the hardware and/or that ex Mattel/Coleco programmers weren't using techniques that they learned while working on official "first party" games.

    Before a publisher could even begin conceptualizing anything, they had to pay an independent company $150k - $200k to reverse engineer the hardware and document every step along the way. If they were the fourth company requesting the service for the same hardware, they couldn't just print them off a copy of the massive book. They had to do it from scratch each time.

    Even after that they weren't allow to touch any of the copyrighted/patented bios. The VCS doesn't have anything intellectual to protect. Which is why both Intellivision and Colecovision had legal "adapters" to play Atari games, but Atari couldn't do the same.
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  10. #295
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets Leynos's Avatar
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    Can't rep but thanks for explaining that. That always seemed so bizarre to me and wasn't sure how it was allowed.

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Yeah, I know. The ColecoVision had pretty much off the shelf parts, and like someone had said (was it you?) the Intellivision team insisted that all internal games used their development tools. Atarisoft made sure that they didnít use any part of the Coleco bios, should Coleco choose to take them to court. They were probably following what Activision did to Atari.

    The irony is that Atariís Tengen tried to circumvent Nintendoís lock out chip on the NES and got caught cheating.
    Last edited by gamevet; 01-28-2020 at 10:13 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  12. #297
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    The even bigger irony is that Tengen had already reverse engineered the CIC interactions and made a compatible cloneÖ then at the very last minute an executive decided they had to use the original CIC's code out of fear that a future revision could be snooping the entire program to ensure validity. Which then Nintendo exploited to sue them. Whoops.

    But yeah, pretty ironic in general given how Atari was actively trying to stop others with the Atari 2600. Granted, part of the issue was that they themselves got threatened over not doing anything about third parties selling porn games and such (though I don't think any lawsuit materialized from that?), so even if they had made the platform open they were going to be in trouble :​/

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    They would have got away with it, if not for that darned patent office visit.

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    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  14. #299
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I canít see the video. I was more interested in showing that the Colecovision could do scrolling just fine with the right developer. Matt from Atarisoft days was the guy that programmed the excellent Moon Patrol. The game certainly looked better than the version I got on the C64. The game was completed, when Atari shut down all publishing.

    He said that Atarisoft didnít use Colecoís buggy bios and that they had created their own code so that they could get around any legal action from Coleco. Atari didnít pay any money to Coleco to publish games on the console.

    https://atariage.com/forums/topic/22...lder/#comments
    God damn forum software and their weak Dailymotion support: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6hdflw

    Personally I think the 5200 version is the best. Has a lot more background detail, though I think the ColecoVision version has the best colours.

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    I would buy a 5200, if those controllers weren't such a pos. I've actually looked into those gold plated contact replacements, but I don't think that those would remedy the stick itself. The 5200 could have been something special, had Atari actually invested more into the console.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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