Quantcast

Page 12 of 31 FirstFirst ... 2891011121314151622 ... LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 455

Thread: 2nd generation console discussion(Intellivision, Colecovision, 2600, Odyssey 2)

  1. #166
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    8,843
    Rep Power
    127

    Default

    It also supports higher screen resolutions and starts at 320x240.

    I’ve seen the CDTV, and if did FMV on-par with the 32-bit consoles.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  2. #167
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    4,080
    Rep Power
    65

    Default

    Doing more spec research, it turns out the Intellivision is the only console to ever run under 1 MHz, at 900 KHz. It must get a lot of work done per cycle.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  3. #168
    WCPO Agent
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    961
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Look at the specs on Wikipedia. Stuff like 2 MB RAM would never be seen on a 4th gen console, the SNES has like 200 KB while the PC Engine is around 80 KB. Also a 24-bit palette(16.7 milllion colours) is the same as the main 5th gen consoles. And the 32-bit processor. The CD32 is a strange case.
    The PCE CD arcade cards also had 2MB RAM. The palette is impressive but not really necessary for the time, 256 colors is plenty for games like Gloom.

  4. #169
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    8,843
    Rep Power
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Doing more spec research, it turns out the Intellivision is the only console to ever run under 1 MHz, at 900 KHz. It must get a lot of work done per cycle.
    The chip was around since the early 70's. I can't imagine that it can do as much in 1 cycle, as an 8-bit CPU that can do 3 cycles in that same time frame.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  5. #170
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Vancouver
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,881
    Rep Power
    108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    The PCE CD arcade cards also had 2MB RAM. The palette is impressive but not really necessary for the time, 256 colors is plenty for games like Gloom.
    Ram is just memory. The PCE system cards are the equivalent of cart space for the rom they're playing. It doesn't improve hardware performance, it only allows even more content to be tossed at it for same hardware to struggle with.



    Look at the specs on Wikipedia. Stuff like 2 MB RAM would never be seen on a 4th gen console, the SNES has like 200 KB while the PC Engine is around 80 KB. Also a 24-bit palette(16.7 milllion colours) is the same as the main 5th gen consoles. And the 32-bit processor. The CD32 is a strange case.
    The PC Engine has 8 kB of work ram and that was enough. It doesn't render frames the way competing consoles do. Which is why tech spec comparisons are generally misleading on their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  6. #171
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,980
    Rep Power
    70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The chip was around since the early 70's. I can't imagine that it can do as much in 1 cycle, as an 8-bit CPU that can do 3 cycles in that same time frame.
    It depends how many cycles it spends per instruction on average. This tends to be a common sticking point and the obvious source of contention when anybody dares to bring up e.g. 6502 vs Z80 (the latter is usually clocked higher but also usually spends twice as many cycles for the equivalent instructions… though there's way more to it than that).

  7. #172
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    8,843
    Rep Power
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    It depends how many cycles it spends per instruction on average. This tends to be a common sticking point and the obvious source of contention when anybody dares to bring up e.g. 6502 vs Z80 (the latter is usually clocked higher but also usually spends twice as many cycles for the equivalent instructions… though there's way more to it than that).
    The Z80 was built to compete with Intel's 8080 and perform more efficeintly, which it did. While the CPU in the Intellivision was touted as 16-bit, but it only used a 10-bit register, with 6 bits in reserve. It's a bit confusing either way.

    I think that it's a telling sign of just how powerful the Intellivision CPU really is, when Mattel opted to use the Z80 in their Aquarius computer, over what they had in the Intellivision.
    Last edited by gamevet; 11-27-2019 at 12:52 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  8. #173
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,980
    Rep Power
    70

    Default

    The registers (R0-R7) are actually 16-bit, it's only the instruction opcodes that were 10-bit.

    EDIT: maybe it'd be a good idea to look at this?
    http://wiki.intellivision.us/index.php?title=CP-1610

    But yeah, the important part here is that it can compute with 16-bit values easily.

    EDIT 2: yikes, the normal time it takes for the common operations is 6 cycles (・・) I hope that having several 16-bit registers and operating on larger values can help compensate for that.

    EDIT 3: last edit for now I swear :v But thinking more about it, the usual way to add on a 6502 is 11 cycles for 8-bit (clc/lda/adc/sta) and 20 cycles for 16-bit (clc/lda/adc/sta/lda/adc/sta), assuming values in zero page. Depending on the surrounding code some instructions can be shaved off, but even then you don't stand to gain that much most of the time. So yeah OK, CP1610 is not so bad when put against that context, not to mention using up a lot less of space for doing the same operation (addr r0,r1 is just 2 bytes on CP1610).
    Last edited by Sik; 11-27-2019 at 02:40 AM.

  9. #174
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    8,843
    Rep Power
    127

    Default

    The Z80 uses 26 cycles. Still, either Mattel was looking at ease of use by going with the Z80 in Aquarius, or they just thought that it was a better CPU.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  10. #175
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Vancouver
    Age
    43
    Posts
    4,881
    Rep Power
    108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The Z80 was built to compete with Intel's 8080 and perform more efficeintly, which it did. While the CPU in the Intellivision was touted as 16-bit, but it only used a 10-bit register, with 6 bits in reserve. It's a bit confusing either way.

    I think that it's a telling sign of just how powerful the Intellivision CPU really is, when Mattel opted to use the Z80 in their Aquarius computer, over what they had in the Intellivision.
    No console has its history as well documented as the Intellivision and it is now one of the easiest consoles to develop for thanks to Intv Basic.

    Mattel never developed any of their own hardware. They didn't even have any staff to develop software early on. They never had any input into Aquarius. It was a piece of garbage that was offered to them cheap and was less capable than the Intellivision. Which is why it was DOA and found in dollar stores and drug stores within a year.

    I don't believe that this is a telling sign of how inferior the Z80 is.

    All of this speculation based on random specs taken out of context only leads to pages of nonsense that is clearly not true if you actually at the games that already existing games for these consoles.

    There are interviews out there of almost every programmer who worked on Intellivision games bitd and the current dev community is very open. There's no point in theorizing how part of the Intellivision might work if it was inside of a different console, when you can find out how people actually got increasing performance from it in many different ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  11. #176
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,980
    Rep Power
    70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The Z80 uses 26 cycles. Still, either Mattel was looking at ease of use by going with the Z80 in Aquarius, or they just thought that it was a better CPU.
    Eh? On the Z80 for a 16-bit addition of two arbitrary values ADD HL, DE is 11 cycles, and if you want 8-bit values you're looking at just 4 cycles. Only reason why I went with 8-bit additions for 6502 is because it's literally the only thing it has.

    Maybe we could start talking about getting the values into the registers too, but both CP1610 and Z80 still beat the 6502 quite easily there (due to the 6502 only having three 8-bit registers with restricted uses and insisting on using memory a lot). CP1610 would be a clear winner, but it depends on whether you're dealing with 8-bit or 16-bit RAM (the former needs extra cycles for loading a 16-bit value due to being split in two accesses and also a "double data flag" instruction prefix). Intellivision's scratchpad is 8-bit and it's the only thing games using the EXEC have, system RAM is 16-bit but there's no spare room available if you use the EXEC (but if you don't then there's a lot of speed to be gained by using it).

    This actually reminds me of another oddity: the CP1610 was designed to work with either 10-bit or 16-bit ROMs (again, using the same double data flag instruction that is used for dealing with 8-bit RAM). I suppose games back then used 10-bit ROM for cost reasons, but all the lines are exposed in the cartridge port, so there's nothing stopping homebrew to go with 16-bit ROM. The opcodes will still be 10-bit but the operands can be 16-bit and again there's speed to be gained just by doing that.

  12. #177
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    8,843
    Rep Power
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Eh? On the Z80 for a 16-bit addition of two arbitrary values ADD HL, DE is 11 cycles, and if you want 8-bit values you're looking at just 4 cycles. Only reason why I went with 8-bit additions for 6502 is because it's literally the only thing it has.

    Maybe we could start talking about getting the values into the registers too, but both CP1610 and Z80 still beat the 6502 quite easily there (due to the 6502 only having three 8-bit registers with restricted uses and insisting on using memory a lot). CP1610 would be a clear winner, but it depends on whether you're dealing with 8-bit or 16-bit RAM (the former needs extra cycles for loading a 16-bit value due to being split in two accesses and also a "double data flag" instruction prefix). Intellivision's scratchpad is 8-bit and it's the only thing games using the EXEC have, system RAM is 16-bit but there's no spare room available if you use the EXEC (but if you don't then there's a lot of speed to be gained by using it).

    This actually reminds me of another oddity: the CP1610 was designed to work with either 10-bit or 16-bit ROMs (again, using the same double data flag instruction that is used for dealing with 8-bit RAM). I suppose games back then used 10-bit ROM for cost reasons, but all the lines are exposed in the cartridge port, so there's nothing stopping homebrew to go with 16-bit ROM. The opcodes will still be 10-bit but the operands can be 16-bit and again there's speed to be gained just by doing that.
    4 is the minimum, and I was mistaken: It's up to 23 cycles (not 26) to complete a single instruction.

    https://8bitnotes.com/2017/05/z80-timing/


    I haven't messed with a Z80 since the 80's, when we were using Hex to do some simple programming. I barely remember any of that now.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  13. #178
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,980
    Rep Power
    70

    Default

    Errrr yeah, this is why you compare equivalent operations instead (ideally whole tasks if feasible, as it can lead to taking different approaches). Also the slowest instructions on Z80 involve using (IX+nn) or (IY+nn) (those operands alone add a lot to the cycle count), the cap is lower once you exclude those.

  14. #179
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    8,843
    Rep Power
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    No console has its history as well documented as the Intellivision and it is now one of the easiest consoles to develop for thanks to Intv Basic.
    You could say that about a lot of these consoles, and some of the old 8-bit computers. There's a homebrew 2600 version of Pac-Man that is way beyond the version that the Intellivison got. And C-64, late in its life, got amazing looking games like R-Type and Turrican. I still believe that the C-64 had a better version of Gyruss than the NES, because it doesn't have flickering sprites like the NES game.




    Mattel never developed any of their own hardware. They didn't even have any staff to develop software early on. They never had any input into Aquarius. It was a piece of garbage that was offered to them cheap and was less capable than the Intellivision. Which is why it was DOA and found in dollar stores and drug stores within a year.
    Mattel was looking at a chip from National Semiconductor and thier hire consultant steered them toward the General Instruments chip instead. Still, Mattel did work with GI to redesign the chip to include reprogramable graphics, so they did have a hand in its re-design. Mattel also designed the rest of the hardware, that included those horrible controllers, and cart specs of 8k. A lot of those Intellivision games were 2 player, because they didn't have enough space left to include an AI opponent.



    All of this speculation based on random specs taken out of context only leads to pages of nonsense that is clearly not true if you actually at the games that already existing games for these consoles.
    What? Are you trying to imply that I'd never played an Intellivision back in the day? My neighbor next door had the console, along with games like Astrosmash, Black Jack, Space Armada, Baseball, Donkey Kong, Armor Battle, some car racing game, and one of the AD&D games. I wasn't that impressed with it, and I loved games on anything I could get my hands on, but the games felt slow and I wasn't having a great time with it. Meanwhile, one of my friends had a ColecoVision, and I was blown away by the games and how smooth they ran. I never got the impression that the Intellivision was in the same league as the CV, 5200, or C64. And I haven't seen a lot of home brew that will change my impression of it.

    There are interviews out there of almost every programmer who worked on Intellivision games bitd and the current dev community is very open. There's no point in theorizing how part of the Intellivision might work if it was inside of a different console, when you can find out how people actually got increasing performance from it in many different ways.
    The same could be said of all of those old consoles. It's crazy to see what people were able to achieve on the old 2600, using better code and having larger cart space.

    Here's a homebrew of Castlevania on the Intellivision. Can you honestly say that it is even close to the NES game?

    Last edited by gamevet; 11-29-2019 at 02:09 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  15. #180
    Master of Shinobi Thenewguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,037
    Rep Power
    36

    Default

    R-Type was not a great port to C64, I think it was made in about 2 weeks.

    Enforcer was made by the same person and shows the capabilities of the computer much better.



    -------------------------------

    Intellivision has hardware scrolling and sprites at a time when scrolling 2D games were about to become massive, I don't see that it needs a fast CPU. The Atari ST had a fast CPU and the whole thing ended up being dedicated to creating software sprites and scrolling the screen at best at 25fps in a window (It was very good for 3D type games at the time though as hardware scroll and sprites are little help there).

    Intellivania is ludicrously low res but there are still tradeoffs here between this and the SG-1000 IMO. SG-1000 version would scroll worse than this, would have worse audio, and probably wouldn't be able to display enough sprites to do this either. It'd have to make the enemies out of tiles so they'd have much more coarse movement than they do here. Not that I'm saying it wouldn't look better overall on SG-1000 as the higher resolution would more than offset the other sacrifices IMO, but both versions would have their own strengths and weaknesses.

    It would probably look more akin to this MSX 1 game -



    -----------------------------------

    Its a shame the PC-Engine doesn't have two backgrounds in hardware, then the "5th generation" could just have hardware parallax as its defining characteristic. As it is I think I rate machines of that time 5th gen or not based on whether they can do a respectable port of Street Fighter 2

    -----------------------------------

    I don't think its fair to compare CD32 to SNES with Super FX chips. SNES was not running Doom or Star Fox the Super FX was.

    With that in mind it seems the CD32 is just a very underpowered between-generations console



    I'm surprised by the number of games on the machine actually, or course they were pretty much just ports of Amiga games, but they got their act together putting the games on CD and releasing them quickly at least, unlike the Atari 5200 with the A8 library.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •