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Thread: 2nd generation console discussion(Intellivision, Colecovision, 2600, Odyssey 2)

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I look at it kind of like going from the SMS to the Genesis to the 32X, there's still the base hardware in there somewhere but it's no longer needed for much.

    Either way I think it's cool, it's like having a "new" 4th gen console.
    It's a bigger leap than that, but I mean having a new 4th gen console is kinda interesting. But why make it as an addon? Now you've limited the audience to Coleco owners. As a standalone, I'd definitely be more interested in it. I guess from support/sales perspective, Coleco owners (and fans of that generation) will probably be more likely to buy it than if it was just a standalone console to a general audience? I dunno. I'm having a hard time justifying it outside side some Coleco alternative corrective history fan-ism. At least the SGM1 is much more grounded in reality, and still keeps with the spirit of the console (and doesn't over power it).

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Yeah it doesn’t make sense. The SGM1 makes more sense, though it could have used more units available.
    Last edited by gamevet; 01-25-2020 at 04:13 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    It's a bigger leap than that, but I mean having a new 4th gen console is kinda interesting. But why make it as an addon? Now you've limited the audience to Coleco owners. As a standalone, I'd definitely be more interested in it. I guess from support/sales perspective, Coleco owners (and fans of that generation) will probably be more likely to buy it than if it was just a standalone console to a general audience? I dunno. I'm having a hard time justifying it outside side some Coleco alternative corrective history fan-ism. At least the SGM1 is much more grounded in reality, and still keeps with the spirit of the console (and doesn't over power it).
    Oh I didn't realize that, I thought it was being offered as a standalone. As an add-on yeah that isn't nearly as interesting to buy, even if I do find it technically impressive.

    I would have liked to see something like this in an FPGA-clone of a Colecovision that can run the old games (maybe have a bunch loaded into internal memory, if it's possible to get the licenses) and have its own library of games too. The specs look good for a 4th gen console although only 64 sprites total may limit some styles of gameplay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    Oh I didn't realize that, I thought it was being offered as a standalone. As an add-on yeah that isn't nearly as interesting to buy, even if I do find it technically impressive.

    I would have liked to see something like this in an FPGA-clone of a Colecovision that can run the old games (maybe have a bunch loaded into internal memory, if it's possible to get the licenses) and have its own library of games too. The specs look good for a 4th gen console although only 64 sprites total may limit some styles of gameplay.
    It's both. Their new console is called Omni and that hardware is in the new SGM2 shell.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Came across this MSX game and thought it an interesting point of comparison. A side-scrolling mascot platformer of sorts, based on a cartoon, released in 1991 in South Korea. I think this gives a realistic idea (and not a best-case scenario) of what an average late Colecovision game might have looked like if it had survived into the late 80s. Quite frankly, it being Korean-developed makes me think we would have seen better.



    The scrolling still isn't good, but it's a step up from the system's worst offenders in that regard. The sprites are decent and the backgrounds are fairly impressive. The first stage simulates two background layers and the third is a shooter stage and shows some use of parallax. Good use of color too. Unfortunately it looks like crap gameplay wise.


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  6. #261
    Master of Shinobi Thenewguy's Avatar
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    The scrolling is still in 8 pixel steps, its just scrolling faster so its less noticeable.

    Some games still play well at that speed (such as MSX Road Fighter) but if you scrolled a game like Gradius that quickly it'd be unplayable.

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    Activision managed to get smooth scrolling with River Raid. It can't be that difficult.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Activision managed to get smooth scrolling with River Raid. It can't be that difficult.
    Dynamic tiles eat up a lot of space. If you're going for fully smooth you need 8 times as many tiles per direction. Horizontal plus vertical is 16 times and adding a single degree of diagonal requires another 8 frames of everything. If the Colecovision can't flip tiles then another 8 frames would be required for the other diagonal.

    Free roaming Intellivision games move in 16 directions. Which would require 64 times as many tiles to animate on Colecovision.

    River Raid is mostly single color filler lacking any pixelart.

    Just because there are a few Mode 7 demos for Genesis doesn't mean that it can't be that difficult.




    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    It's a bigger leap than that, but I mean having a new 4th gen console is kinda interesting. But why make it as an addon? Now you've limited the audience to Coleco owners. As a standalone, I'd definitely be more interested in it. I guess from support/sales perspective, Coleco owners (and fans of that generation) will probably be more likely to buy it than if it was just a standalone console to a general audience? I dunno. I'm having a hard time justifying it outside side some Coleco alternative corrective history fan-ism. At least the SGM1 is much more grounded in reality, and still keeps with the spirit of the console (and doesn't over power it).
    There is a strong base of Colecovision collectors who buy at least 2 copies of every physical release. Which is why the original SGM was made just good enough to facilitate fast MSX conversions.

    Intellivision has a similar community of collectors who try to obtain everything but it seems to be a much smaller group. There are also lot of straight game enthusiasts who will support rom sales.
    Last edited by Black_Tiger; 01-25-2020 at 10:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  9. #264
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Colecovision is TMS9918A so yeah, it can't flip anything period.

    That said, I guess that if you really wanted you could get away with less granurality (but more than 8px), e.g. Choro Q on MSX seems to get away with 4px, though it does have a rather simplistic look (forgot if I already linked this video in the thread but if so it was long ago so whatever):



    I suppose whatever it takes to make it move often enough.

    EDIT: originally I said 2px but after paying more attention it seems to be 4px. Goddammit, that's the second time the game fools me with its scrolling :​P

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    4-pixel scrolling fits into looking similar to some of the lower framerate games that were common leading up to the release of Colevovision.

    Pure EXEC games on Intellivision run at <20fps. But you still get the full motion of speed that you do with 60fps. Going from static to full speed movement begins at 1-pixel increments and can build up in a slope like real animation.

    I imagine that gameplay at least has the potential to be much more detailed as well. Even if you program in pixel-by-pixel collision in a game that visually scrolls at a minimum of 4-pixels or more, the human brain wouldn't react as accurately in response.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  11. #266
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Moon Patrol on the MSX isn't smooth but looks like shorter steps. Maybe 4 px



    Yet the Colecovision port looks smoother still.



    BC 2, one of the few side-scrolling "platformers" old enough to be on the Colecovision during its lifespan, also looks like less than 8 pixel steps. But worse than the C64 version for sure.



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  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Moon Patrol on the MSX isn't smooth but looks like shorter steps. Maybe 4 px



    Yet the Colecovision port looks smoother still.



    BC 2, one of the few side-scrolling "platformers" old enough to be on the Colecovision during its lifespan, also looks like less than 8 pixel steps. But worse than the C64 version for sure.

    BC 2 is just shuffling tiles. Switch youtube to slowest playback and you can count the pixels.

    Moon Patrol for MSX would have required a massive number of tiles to animate smoothly for the amount of detail, variety and height of the pixelart. The Colecovision version simplified each, but is still very impressive and has the potential to play better..

    If you pretty much always scroll a background fast enough that hardware scrolling would be moving at exactly 8 pixels per frame, it looks smooth. But in-between 8-pixel increments will look weird though. So the next smooth speed would be in 16 pixels increments and very fast. Smooth fast tile-by-tile scrolling works best for backgrounds like shooters without any background collision.

    Mech 8 looks like it's shuffling tiles at the sweet spot:








    The cool thing about Space Patrol for Intellivision is that Joe Zbiciak actually pulled off all of the parallax using actual h-sync, which was tough to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  13. #268
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Dynamic tiles eat up a lot of space. If you're going for fully smooth you need 8 times as many tiles per direction. Horizontal plus vertical is 16 times and adding a single degree of diagonal requires another 8 frames of everything. If the Colecovision can't flip tiles then another 8 frames would be required for the other diagonal.

    Free roaming Intellivision games move in 16 directions. Which would require 64 times as many tiles to animate on Colecovision.
    Those D&D games were hardly what I'd call good examples of scrolling, no matter how many directions they had. I doubt any of them were more than 8, despite the controller offering 16 directions. And most side scrollers only had to scroll in one direction.

    Defender scrolls just fine in 2 directions on the CV.



    River Raid is mostly single color filler lacking any pixelart.
    River Raid was not a single color. It had blue water and green land.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Those D&D games were hardly what I'd call good examples of scrolling, no matter how many directions they had. I doubt any of them were more than 8, despite the controller offering 16 directions.
    Hover Force says hi:



    As a side note, gamevet, do you have a grudge against the Intellivision or something? You seem kind of driven to paint it in a bad light, and I'm curious as to why.

  15. #270
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    The Intellivision was a console that I really was interested in playing, and once I did, I was not impressed (probably the worst videogame controller I've ever held) with it. I've always thought that the games just weren't any fun. I watched my neighbor's kids for extra money and I'd often play their Intellivision, just to pass the time, and I often got bored with the games, including AD&D. And no, I don't feel that the Intellivision is on the same level as the Colecovision and Atari 5200. It just felt like a console that was slightly above the Atari VCS in graphics, with poorer sound.

    And it's not so much hating on the Intellivision. It's people trying to knock down the CV hardware because it doesn't have hardware scrolling. Obviously, that Moon Patrol footage shows smooth scrolling and parallax scrolling. It's not always necessary to have a built-in hardware feature to accomplish something. And seriously, that Intellivision video of Moon Patrol isn't even comparable.


    That's not smooth scrolling BTW.

    There's always excuses in this thread with the Intellivision for direct comparisons of the day, but the reality was that it couldn't compete with the CV or 5200 in arcade ports.




    Why is the scrolling choppy (the game is running at a snail's pace) in this Intellivision port (It's real hardware!) of TutanKham, even though the hardware supports scrolling?


    There wasn't a port of this game for the 5200, but it shared hardware design with their 8-bit computers.
    Last edited by gamevet; 01-26-2020 at 03:00 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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