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Thread: "SNES has a more powerful CPU and higher resolution in games than the Genesis"

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    US localization of PCE R-type is the worse offender though.. 12 sprite per scanline because they're idiots haha (the PCE JP version runs full 16 cells per scanline). And to top it off, they clipped the output from JP's 352px wide screen down to US's 336px wide screen, but didn't both changing the in-game code for inserting/removing sprites for the virtual window (which is wider than 352px.. probably matches the arcade)! The PCE doesn't give a crap where the sprite is; it simple fetches sprites all the way up to 1024 pixel position - off screen or not. I.e. unnecessary flicker/dropout if you don't manage that effectively against the virtual window. NECs port of Forgotten Worlds is like this too; it still uses the arcades 384+ horizontal virtual window to bring in sprites, increasing the scenario of sprite flicker. They either didn't know or simply didn't care. It took me one simple test to see it happening.
    This is very interesting, I wonder why they would do that? The architectures are different enough I'd have thought they'd rewrite the game engine, but if it's still at a width of 384 that sounds like maybe they had the source code to the arcade game and ported it over?

    Somewhat related, doesn't the PCE port of WonderBoy III use the same 192 px vertical resolution of the SMS original?

  2. #107
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    A single 16 color palette entry for ME/PCE is 18 bytes! BYTES!
    Nitpick, but it's 32 bytes (nobody in their right mind will waste time packing the bits to remove the unused gaps). But yeah, they're so small that they aren't even worth compressing (which is also why palette hacks are so easy, just dump the palette with an emulator then search the bytes in the ROM).

  3. #108
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    This is very interesting, I wonder why they would do that? The architectures are different enough I'd have thought they'd rewrite the game engine, but if it's still at a width of 384 that sounds like maybe they had the source code to the arcade game and ported it over?

    Somewhat related, doesn't the PCE port of WonderBoy III use the same 192 px vertical resolution of the SMS original?
    Not exactly. It uses the PC Engine's lowest vertical resolution of 224 and adds 16-pixel tall black bars at the top and bottom of the screen.






    Quote Originally Posted by tisurame View Post
    Sure...
    It's true, it's not just a 16-bit Sega thing...









    <--- CPS Arcade game it's a port of.
    Last edited by Black_Tiger; 01-10-2020 at 11:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    It's true, it's not just a 16-bit Sega thing...
    The only difference is that on the Mega Drive it's more of an exception than a rule.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by tisurame View Post
    Sure...













    Are most PCE games filling the 240p window? If so, that's very nice advantage over the SNES/MD, even if most TVs at that time cropped the picture putting into the overscan area. Most emulator screenshots I'm seeing are x224 only, but maybe it's cropped.
    Waaiittt... you're not talking about blank/black pixel data? You're talking about having the whole screen not being the scroll map or whatever?! That's so great hahaha. I miss retro game forums.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Nitpick, but it's 32 bytes (nobody in their right mind will waste time packing the bits to remove the unused gaps). But yeah, they're so small that they aren't even worth compressing (which is also why palette hacks are so easy, just dump the palette with an emulator then search the bytes in the ROM).
    Potentially haha. But I've seen PCE developers do it. But maybe because 9bits in a 16bit word are written as already bit-packed, to the VCE. So the compressed data is still fast to write; 1byte with 8 MSbits, and 8 bytes of the rest of the 8bits. It's just a sample write the 8bits as the byte to the lower port IO, and bit shift the packed byte to write that bit to the VDC upper port IO latch. Though you can't use the 16bit port block move instruction for compressed palettes.

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    This is very interesting, I wonder why they would do that? The architectures are different enough I'd have thought they'd rewrite the game engine, but if it's still at a width of 384 that sounds like maybe they had the source code to the arcade game and ported it over?

    Somewhat related, doesn't the PCE port of WonderBoy III use the same 192 px vertical resolution of the SMS original?
    That would be my guess haha. Convert the game logic to 6280, and keep most of the assets and tables. On WB3, yeah same window res. Most of the graphic assets are as-is too (just slight different adjusted colors).
    Last edited by turboxray; 01-11-2020 at 01:15 PM.

  7. #112
    Outrunner EPSYLON EAGLE's Avatar
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    Pc-Engine is a great console, just like Genesis, its qualities far exceed any limitations, a successful western release lacked for it.

    One question persists, the fact that Snes handles more background layers someway impacts in CPU performance?

  8. #113
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Not really? I mean, you have to compute the scroll values for the extra layers, but that's barely significant (except maybe if you go full bonkers with linescroll, and even then depends how complex is the math for that).

  9. #114
    Outrunner EPSYLON EAGLE's Avatar
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    ^^^Thanks!

    Isn't easy, but someone kindly could somehow list the advantages and disadvantages of Genesis, SNES and PC-Engine CPU's, and say which has the absolute edge about make really good games?

  10. #115
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPSYLON EAGLE View Post
    ^^^Thanks!

    Isn't easy, but someone kindly could somehow list the advantages and disadvantages of Genesis, SNES and PC-Engine CPU's, and say which has the absolute edge about make really good games?
    The SNES' different Modes have different trade-offs. Most standard 2D games use a Mode that incorporates a layer of low color NES looking assets. That's why the text in the SFII games looks so dull.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  11. #116
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Yohko16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    What are you talking about. Sure, some games ignored it, but some didn't. Or is the Triforce at the beginning of A Link to the Past not supposed to be a triangle?
    This is the kind of comments that I will never understand. Did you even play the actual game before posting this? Do you think a single screen make a whole game?

    Same thing when some people point out Chrono Trigger as an evidence of SNES games made with stretching in mind YET most of the assets in that game AREN'T including the pendulum at the very beginning of the game ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Title screens are one thing, but many SNES games (including Mario, Metroid, and other first party games) do not take stretching into account in the actual game graphics
    Exactly.

    The same is true for the 256x224 Genesis games (such as Monster World IV).
    Fortunately games in 256x224 are a minority on Mega Drive and Mega-CD but ye, most of those don't have graphics made with stretching in mind. The only exceptions that I know of are Super Monaco GP 1 and 2 and Virtua Racing.

    And same goes for the PC Engine, PC Engine CD and also Supergrafx whose majority of games run in 256x224 and with graphic assets not made to compensate for this.

    It was just a mess and any resolutions that aren't 4:3 or close should have never existed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodreign View Post
    ...
    LOL, say the guy who damage control Nintendo stuff all over Youtube. Oh, and also Playstation over Saturn. Easy to notice.

    Your comments usually are "I have fun with the Mega Drive version but with the SNES too", "Mega Drive can sound good but SNES too"... Seriously, posting such comments or nothing would be the same. I mean, what's the point? Is it that hard for you to admit when a SNES version is just worse, sometimes not even worth bothering with?

    And no worries dude I play everything I want and this includes the SNES (so far I enjoyed Jaki Crush and Ninja Warriors Again on it but it's clearly one of the systems I care the less about).

    Anyway those who think that "console wars should be left in the past" are usually regressive people and often fanboys that can't deal with some of the facts that are highlighted or even revealed in the meantime.

    You have the rights not to care about hardware and game comparisons (although I always see you in such discussions, funny enough!) but video game legacy is also here to learn what has been done right or wrong in order to improve everyone's experience, either with the already existing stuff or with the ones to come! It's obvious and shouldn't be hard to understand.

    Also, console wars is fun. Comparisons in general are fun and entertaining and some people should just stop being that butthurt about it!


    Quote Originally Posted by EPSYLON EAGLE View Post
    Well, i have seen some Super Nes fanboys arguing that because the console performs transparency effects, show more colors, background layers and tilemaps, your CPU can handle more workload than Genesis CPU, and these factors often require far more calculations horsepower than any additional screen area resolution.


    That's true?
    That's biased and superficial statement, unsurprisingly.

    For start, many SNES games don't use real transparency but dithering or flickering-based transparency instead.

    Also many SNES games don't show more than 2 scrolling layers.

    It just depends of the games.

    Anyway compare exclusives and multiplats and the Mega Drive usually offer better experiences.

    And it's not only about the higher and better shaped resolution but also about better performances (smoother and more responsive games), more sprites, more animation frames, better AI and such... All those things matter more than just a bunch of additional colors, even more since those systems are meant to be displayed on CRT screen or emulator with adequate filters, all of which smoothes out the visuals and decreases the color advantage on SNES side...

    Sega have just been wiser when they designed the Mega Drive, with more relevant priorities and this is exactly the kind of things I have a lot of respect for.

    Compare Streets of Rage 2 with Final Fight 2 for instance. Streets of Rage 2 runs in higher resolution, smoother, with more sprites and also with crisper sound... The game feels more alive and is much more pleasant to play!

    And it's even more noticeable with multiplats, naturally. Compare Puyo Puyo, Raiden, FIFA or Urban Strike, the Mega Drive versions usually run in higher resolution, smoother, with better AI...

    In fact, even when the Mega Drive is underused like with Street Fighter II or Mortal Kombat, it still usually got superior multiplats!

    Which is kinda crazy because not only was the SNES released 2 years later, but it was also more expensive, the system but the games too, which is baffling to say the least. Imagine paying more for less quality!


    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    From reading this post, apparently you're the resident Sega-16 Sega Fanboi?
    And given your posts, I guess you're tomaitheous and also malducci over there at youtube? A guy who always downplays anything Master System or Mega Drive while always overrates the PC Engine and to a lesser extent the NES and SNES.

    And LMFAO, I must be one kind of a "fanboi" as someones who only owns a PC Engine and a Saturn, who thinks that both systems are kinda disappointing in retrospect and who rates both the Mega Drive and PS1 higher.


    Anyway you can post whatever technical details you want, the reality is that about 80% of the PC Engine library runs in 256x224 pixels and with graphic assets not made to compensate for this so the games always looks deformed once in 4:3 and in some cases also suffer from the limited screen estate that 224 pixels of width gives.

    It's just a fail period.

    And no one should attempt to keep the game in 8:7 just to damage control this resolution issue. 8:7 is OK for old handheld systems and that's it but TV games should be watched minimum in 4:3.

    Overall, when it comes to resolution on these 16-bit systems, it goes this way:
    -Amiga games always uses 320x256 or 320x200 pixels but with often screen reduction in a way or another (HUD bars, black borders...).
    -about 80% of PC Engine/PC Engine CD/Supergarfx games run in 256x224 pixels with the remaining ones using higher and variable resolutions.
    -about 80% of Mega Drive and Mega-CD games run in 320x224 pixels with the remaining ones running in 256x224 pixels (but those are often ports from other systems which explains why they use such resolution).
    -and 99,99% of the SNES library is stuck in 256x224 pixels.


    Furthermore, the PC Engine is limited to 64 sprites whatever the resolution it uses which is why PC Engine games that go over 256x224 usually struggle to do so. R-Type for instance is plagued by lot of slowdowns and sprite flickering.

    Which is why it's both sad and funny how some PC Engine fanboys are so hurry to post static screenshots but once in motion the story is otherwise. Forgotten Worlds is another example. The PC Engine version struggles a lot and looks flat like a pancake due to the lack of parallax scrollings (which is another recurrent issue regarding PC Engine games). Even the way older Mega Drive port than only relies on a tiny 4 meg cart feels more alive overall not to mention it's the sole with co-op play.

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    honestly, 1/4 the resolution of SNES mode 7? At less than half the frame rate? With 16 colors vs 256 colors + color math (transparency, fading, etc) on the SNES? Impressive as it is, and it definitely is, it would have give SNES fans and magazines all the more to harp on the Genesis/MD.
    Not at all and even less back then when people were less aware about what's going on. This could have been huge and one would wonder why Sega didn't attempt something like that, which could have been even more doable with the help of a dedicated chip inside the cart. It's crazy when you think about it! They bothered to do some decent Sonic Kart games on Game Gear but not on Mega Drive despite that this would have been much more impactful on the latter!

    Anyway I tried Gasega's demo a few days ago and not only it looks very good but it also plays very well! I was amazed by the controls and also by the visual depth, with parallax scrollings and some sort of transparency that creates a progressive shadow. Now let's see how far he can push this but as some comments made me realize, the SNES version cheats in some ways since it only displays very few enemy cars at once (maybe 2 maximum?) so if he uses similar tricks, it should be fine and an amazing addition to the Mega Drive library.

    This also makes me wonder if the Amiga or PC Engine could pull off something this good. I remember a PC Engine demo called "Hu-zero" and while it looked good when static, it looked completely broken once running.


    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    The fact that you did not have this reaction to Yohko's many rants is a reason to look in the mirror.
    Those are "rants" only because they don't fit your fanboy agenda.

    And LOL at your screenshot side-by-side, how's the troll going? Picking deliberately screenshots that disadvantage the Mega Drive and not even posting the correct PC Engine screenshot for Psychic Detective Series Vol.3: Ařa, of which the PC Engine version is one of many games that run in lower resolution than its Mega Drive counterpart:

    PC Engine:
    psychic-detective-series-vol-3-aya-pcecd-2.png

    Mega Drive:
    547971-psychic-detective-series-vol-3-aya-sega-cd-screenshot-meeting.png

    I guess a thread about proper side-by-side screenshots and, even more importantly, side-by-side GIFs should be created.

  12. #117
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert Yohko16's Avatar
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    LOL, why do my screenshots appear in tiny? xD Well, people can click on them to see the correct size anyway but still, would like to know how to fix that.


    btw @gamevet: early Mega Drive games already looked better than what the Amiga mostly got by that point. Space Harrier 2, Golden Axe, Truxton, Revenge of Shinobi, Castle of Illusion... So no idea how you can emit a certain disappointment in regard to colors.

    And things just improved thereafter, as developers knew more how to use the Mega Drive palettes and as the cartridge size increased. Sonic 2, Thunder Force IV, Panorama Cotton, Flink, Soleil, Ecco the Dolphin 2, Alien Soldier and tons more Mega Drive games look fantastic!

    edit: most multiplats look better on Mega Drive than Amiga anyway. Golden Axe, Outrun, Double Dragon, Galahad, Risky Woods, Mega Turrican and so on...

    But the Amiga sure has incredible colors for its time. I think it's one of the most impressive hardwares ever, alongside the likes of the Mega Drive, Playstation (that I didn't think was this good until recently) or Dreamcast.
    Last edited by Yohko16; 01-12-2020 at 05:49 PM.

  13. #118
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohko16 View Post


    btw @gamevet: early Mega Drive games already looked better than what the Amiga mostly got by that point. Space Harrier 2, Golden Axe, Truxton, Revenge of Shinobi, Castle of Illusion... So no idea how you can emit a certain disappointment in regard to colors.
    They have nice art direction, and they do run smoother, though a lot of that has to do with Amiga ports being from the land of PAL. Both the Amiga and Genesis versions of Golden Axe had major color changes to the enemies and backgrounds, compared to the arcade game. Some of those had to be made because of the color limits of both systems.

    Having a TurboGrafx-16, Amiga 500, SNES and Genesis. The Genesis just had the most limited color pallette of the group. It doesn't make it bad, just a little disappointing. I loved the graphics in Phantasy Star 2 BTW.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  14. #119
    8 & 16 bit guy Outrunner Bloodreign's Avatar
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    Yohko, that's because I love my SNES, my Genesis, my PS1, and my Saturn. You don't see very well, I've defended the Genesis on a number of occasions from SNES fanboys, as well as the Saturn. And yes, I own 3 Sega consoles (SMS, Genesis, Saturn), so take of that what you will, I don't really care anymore. I will defend the consoles I choose to defend, I will like the games I want, I don't listen to you. I'm far too old to listen to you. But I'm also not going to let someone trash the SNES, like I won't let people trash the Genesis.


    My combined total of games for SNES and Genesis sits at 354 games, and the only reason my PS1 outnumbers my Saturn by a wide margin, the cost of Saturn games, I'm not breaking bank to buy any costly game for any of the consoles I have. PS1 games are cheap, outside of maybe one I want, and even then I'm not spending a fortune on it.


    And no, the 16 bit wars are long over, technical babble does not concern me, it's all about the games, I see a game I like to play, and if it's affordable, it's mine, regardless of console.

  15. #120
    Master of Shinobi midnightrider's Avatar
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    ^Yeah, I don't need to know what a console can do to enjoy it's games, although I was into having that argument 6-8 years ago. If I prefer Sega it's because I prefer arcade/action games in general.

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