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Thread: Was the N64 strategy the best way for Sega to return to the market? (Hypothetically)

  1. #361
    Master of Shinobi
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    VF on Saturn can and does paint the entire ring if you move in an angle that makes it visible (usually if you get caught doing a high jump in the replay), during a normal fight it looks like it's not rendering parts because some polygons are at an angle that they would be 1-2 pixel tall strips, so the game chooses to not bother. And of course it doesn't do gouraud shading or texturing - the original game does not do it either.

    VF Remix looks worse IMO, the textures are not that great, and in return the game now lacks all lightning (it runs in medium res and the Saturn can't texture and do lightning at the same time in anything but low-res).

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Have you seen the Saturn version? The launch one. It can't even draw the entire ring for fucks sake (it has the shortest draw distance for a 3D game ever I swear, and it isn't even using textured or gouraud polygons!), it's a horrible glitchfest. If it was supposed to show how good the Saturn was at 3D, they failed miserably, and only helped give people good reasons to avoid the Saturn like the plague and go for the PS1 instead. The 32X version is lower detail (it is weaker hardware) but at least doesn't feel like an early prototype.

    The Remix version is a different matter and what Sega should have released in the first place.

    The Saturn had hardware to do all that in a much better way and kept the second CPU, just saying. To the point that they could have removed a bunch of stuff and it'd still be way better than the 32X with little trouble. If anything they should have tried to simplify the Saturn and put all the focus on that.

    Seriously, the 32X was 100% pointless given the Saturn was already underway. The only supposed appeal for the 32X was price, except you also needed the base console and cartridges were expensive, may as well go with a PS1 that was overall cheaper, used that "new fangled" CD technology everybody loved at the time (OK not so new but it was still during big CD hype) and already was looking much better.
    Virtua Fighter was very impressive when the Saturn came out. People in the future nitpick little things like the floor in replays, yet are still blind to flappy seams and jittery warping textures in most Playstation games.

    When the Saturn came out the 3DO was the best console available for 3D. Virtua Fighter also wasn't just some random original 3D game. It brought the arcade experience home like never before and was an actual great game that has held up over time.

    Even if the Saturn version was a perfect port people would still complain today that Sega shipped a flat shaded polygon game and completely miss the context of the time.

    Virtua Fighter was a killer app. If the masses were going to waste their time with garbage like Tekken and Toshinden anyways, what does it matter what Virtua Fighter looked like?

    In North America Virtua Fighter Remix was available during the Playstation launch. Sega should have made sure that it came packed in with each Saturn and shipped more than enough spare copies to attach to early launch units.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  3. #363
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Virtua Fighter was very impressive when the Saturn came out. People in the future nitpick little things like the floor in replays, yet are still blind to flappy seams and jittery warping textures in most Playstation games.

    When the Saturn came out the 3DO was the best console available for 3D. Virtua Fighter also wasn't just some random original 3D game. It brought the arcade experience home like never before and was an actual great game that has held up over time.

    Even if the Saturn version was a perfect port people would still complain today that Sega shipped a flat shaded polygon game and completely miss the context of the time.

    Virtua Fighter was a killer app. If the masses were going to waste their time with garbage like Tekken and Toshinden anyways, what does it matter what Virtua Fighter looked like?

    In North America Virtua Fighter Remix was available during the Playstation launch. Sega should have made sure that it came packed in with each Saturn and shipped more than enough spare copies to attach to early launch units.
    Well said and when you're actually playing the game your are focused on the 2 Characters , not a tiny bit of clipping at the edge of the ring . It's like when you watch videos or VR the clipping and drawn in it's all there to see, but when you playing for yourself, the focus is more on the car that the background.

    Also VF came out in Nov 1994 and did was it meant too, sell the Saturn to Japan . There was nothing around like it at the time. It brought the Arcade gameplay perfectly to the home and for the 1st time we had life like movement in a 3D fighter, with characters motions that looked and moved with the grace of a Jackie Chan movie .

    The 32X version was horrible cut back and coming after both VF and Remix , really what was the point ?
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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Just all the more the pointless. Sega should have just stuck the the planned SVP version for the MD
    I don't know much about the technical details of the SVP tbh, but if Virtua Racing is indicative I don't think it could do the game well enough.


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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I don't know much about the technical details of the SVP tbh, but if Virtua Racing is indicative I don't think it could do the game well enough.
    An SVP version of Virtua Fighter would have much more stick figure looking models, likely lack facial definition and definitely run at <15fps.

    I still would have loved to get more SVP games. Virtua Racing was much more enjoyable and impressive than and Super FX 3D game, including Doom.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    I still would have loved to get more SVP games.
    It was never a viable business option, though. Hideki Sato claims they were paying something like $100 per chip and the chips had quality control problems of some sort. I think Virtua Racing was an experiment to see how it could be done and how much it would cost, and the result was not at all positive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I don't know much about the technical details of the SVP tbh, but if Virtua Racing is indicative I don't think it could do the game well enough.
    At a guess far better than FX fighter on the SNES or maybe even the crappy PC version. Far better to have had the game on the MD, than the 32X project IMO.
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  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    It was never a viable business option, though. Hideki Sato claims they were paying something like $100 per chip and the chips had quality control problems of some sort. I think Virtua Racing was an experiment to see how it could be done and how much it would cost, and the result was not at all positive.
    I find that pretty hard to believe. I mean, yeah maybe it wasn't profitable.. but $100 at their cost? Doubtful.

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    I find that pretty hard to believe. I mean, yeah maybe it wasn't profitable.. but $100 at their cost? Doubtful.
    He was speaking well after the fact so no doubt is exaggerating or generalizing. Virtua Racing did retail for $100, though. And there's also Yuji Naka's account of spending 6 months developing a SVP Sonic game that had to be abandoned when Sega determined that the SVP was going to be too expensive.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    He was speaking well after the fact so no doubt is exaggerating or generalizing. Virtua Racing did retail for $100, though. And there's also Yuji Naka's account of spending 6 months developing a SVP Sonic game that had to be abandoned when Sega determined that the SVP was going to be too expensive.
    What they determined was that SVP had issues and would be late. Sonic 3 had a merchandising deal with McDonalds (I think) so it had a deadline set in stone. They couldn't use the SVP chip because, beyond all other problems, it would not have been ready by the deadline. So they started making Sonic 3, but things were still going slow, so eventually they had to cut it in half, planning to ship part 2 later, and a deluxe Sonic 3 Complete cart that had them both as one cart. S3C never came to be since they did the Lock-on gimmick instead (and even that was only meant to work with Sonic 3 - the Sonic 2 part was done secretly without Sega knowing).

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    What they determined was that SVP had issues and would be late. Sonic 3 had a merchandising deal with McDonalds (I think) so it had a deadline set in stone. They couldn't use the SVP chip because, beyond all other problems, it would not have been ready by the deadline. So they started making Sonic 3, but things were still going slow, so eventually they had to cut it in half, planning to ship part 2 later, and a deluxe Sonic 3 Complete cart that had them both as one cart. S3C never came to be since they did the Lock-on gimmick instead (and even that was only meant to work with Sonic 3 - the Sonic 2 part was done secretly without Sega knowing).
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuji Naka
    In the end, we were unable to use the SVP due to cost issues
    https://mdshock.com/2018/07/19/yuji-...february-1995/

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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    If there had been more SVP games, would they have all been flat polygonal games like Virtua Racing? Or could the SVP potentially be used in other ways?


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  13. #373
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    It was never a viable business option, though. Hideki Sato claims they were paying something like $100 per chip and the chips had quality control problems of some sort. I think Virtua Racing was an experiment to see how it could be done and how much it would cost, and the result was not at all positive.
    Reminds me, I'm not sure how much of the cost is from the SVP itself. Part of the problem is that the SVP seems to work by peeking at the ROM when the 68000 is away from the bus… which is a very short amount of time. That means it needs a very fast ROM. Those were pretty pricey. So the problem may not have been the DSP itself but the design of its memory controller. The SuperFX doesn't suffer from this issue (65816 needs to stay away from the cartridge while the SuperFX accesses ROM and vice versa, but it doesn't require taking them out of their buses completely).

    For the record, this is something the 32X solves by remapping the cartridge area to a then unassigned region that the console doesn't respond to (which means the cartridge is the one that needs to assert /DTACK to tell the 68000 that it's ready). The problem is that this region is 2MB large so bank switching was needed. And that still isn't even the biggest problem because if you run the game off this area then the SH-2s will have some serious trouble if they also need to access ROM regularly (and the Mega Drive's work RAM isn't very big at just 64KB). Hell ensued.

    Incidentally, this is why 32X games using untextured polygons run pretty fast compared to other stuff — the 3D renderer can be run entirely off the 32X's RAM with little trouble, since the code for such a thing is tiny (no unrolled loops either, as that kills the cache, so that contributes to it staying tiny).

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Reminds me, I'm not sure how much of the cost is from the SVP itself.
    Well I doubt it was 100 dollars for a DSP chip . I sure I read it was $15, I think it may have been from an interview with Yu 'GOD' Suzuki too. I get the costs would be high and that for more mass-market games like Sonic price would be an issue, more so has its a game for kids and I seem to remember SEGA saying the memory and the Save feature in Sonic 3 was already adding to the costs (same sort of reasons given for the crazy price of Phantasy Star IV) . But I still say that rather all that money wasted on R&D, PR and development of the 32X and its games.

    SEGA would have just been better off making SVP versions of Star Wars and Virtual Fighter for the Mega Drive, while most of SEGA was then focused on Saturn.
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  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Well I doubt it was 100 dollars for a DSP chip . I sure I read it was $15, I think it may have been from an interview with Yu 'GOD' Suzuki too. I get the costs would be high and that for more mass-market games like Sonic price would be an issue, more so has its a game for kids and I seem to remember SEGA saying the memory and the Save feature in Sonic 3 was already adding to the costs (same sort of reasons given for the crazy price of Phantasy Star IV) . But I still say that rather all that money wasted on R&D, PR and development of the 32X and its games.

    SEGA would have just been better off making SVP versions of Star Wars and Virtual Fighter for the Mega Drive, while most of SEGA was then focused on Saturn.
    Even $15 is very high for one component, if it was $100 the game would never have been made.

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