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Thread: A 6th gen console with specs lower than the Dreamcast's

  1. #76
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingSports Talker waterclaws6's Avatar
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    Xbox 360

    The Xenon and the Cell were some of the most inefficient console cpus despite their clockspeeds being really high. Only thing that saved them was developers getting great at using the multiple threads on the Xenon and Cell SPU's being useful for physics and graphics calculations, and also that generation lasting 10 yrs.
    TRUST BUT VERIFY IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The Xenon processor in the Xbox 360 was a 3 core IBM PowerPC CPU. The Cell processor was a 2 thread PowerPC CPU, with 7 SPEs added to do vector calculations. The 360 GPU was more powerful than that of the PS3, but once you added in the power of the SPEs of the Cell, it could do more. The Cell is considered more powerful than the CPU in the PS4, and would be more powerful than the Xbox One, if MS didn't overclock it.
    Well IGN did a 360 vs PS3 comparison where they said the Cell is capable of 230 GFLOPS, which is a hell of a lot.

    Though the PS3 really showed that theres no point in all that power, if developers can't figure out how to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I don't think its fair to compare GTA 3 to Code Veronica myself: CV is a very linear game and even while the game is in 3D the console as complete control of the camera and the angles. GTA 3 is an open world game with a 3D camera.
    What I liked about CV was how wonderful the characters looked and were modelled and the stunning texture mapping and so atmospheric backgrounds.
    I wasn't trying to imply anything, I was just saying that is the case. Code Veronica is indeed very linear.

    Quote Originally Posted by waterclaws6 View Post
    The Xenon and the Cell were some of the most inefficient console cpus despite their clockspeeds being really high. Only thing that saved them was developers getting great at using the multiple threads on the Xenon and Cell SPU's being useful for physics and graphics calculations, and also that generation lasting 10 yrs.
    Nice work getting this thread to a new page.

    So I will be bringing this thread back to the main topic.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I present to you, the...


    Taito Type-Zero


    This was an arcade board released in 1998. It definitely doesn't have the power of Naomi or even a stock Dreamcast. There really isn't too much information about this board, but this is the best example of what we've been looking for in this thread. http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=673

    The most popular game on the board by-far is Battle Gear 2. It was ported to PS2 where I inspected it and found it runs at 800,000 PPS.





    Heres someone playing it in an arcade. As you can see they really just dumped the game on the PS2 with no improvements:



    Another game is Power Shovel Simulator.



    And Stunt Typhoon(you can really see this board lacks the texture capabilities of Naomi/Dreamcast).







    The first Battle Gear.









    This Swedish guy owns a Taito Type-Zero and has made a ton of videos on it.




    It would've been amazing if Taito made a console version of this board. They could've battled the Dreamcast in 1998/1999. Taito had enough franchises to be a 1st-party developer.

    Though sadly in terms of specs, all I can find out is it uses a Power PC603e. And there isn't really any good emulators for this board.

    So what do you guys think, is this the weaker sibling of the Naomi/Dreamcast? Just watch some of those Battle Gear 2 videos and you'll see what I mean.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I will also be posting the Atari Vegas. This board had a lot of Dreamcast/PS2 ports.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Well IGN did a 360 vs PS3 comparison where they said the Cell is capable of 230 GFLOPS, which is a hell of a lot.

    Though the PS3 really showed that theres no point in all that power, if developers can't figure out how to use it.
    I think that you'll find that games like Uncharted 3, The Last of Us and Wipeout HD benefiitted from using the Cell's SPEs as graphics co-processors to create images that weren't possible on the Xbox 360.

    Last edited by gamevet; 03-07-2020 at 11:24 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets Leynos's Avatar
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    Naughty Dog is a more talented studio than anything MS had out of getting the most out of their hardware. PS3 most devs just had to brute force it. Sony and Nintendo are the best at getting the most out of their own hardware currently. MS makes good looking games but maxing it out the way the other 2 have never seemed as strong. TLOUII on PS4 is insane and Luigi's Mansion 3 should not be running on that tablet. Never really had that reaction personally with MS exclusives. Halo 4 looked great but next to TLOU it doesn't look nearly as special. I'm not a fan of their games but Ninja Theory might be that studio for MS now. Get the most out of the hardware.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?



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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I think that you'll find that games like Uncharted 3, The Last of Us and Wipeout HD benefiitted from using the Cell's SPEs as graphics co-processors to create images that weren't possible on the Xbox 360.

    It's not all about the SPEs. Early on, Sony allowed devs to directly access to the hardware (bypassing APIs) for the PS3 to increase performance. Microsoft didn't allow direct hardware access for the Xbox and 360 consoles.

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Yes, MS hampers the performance with their Direct X API, but the 360 does have a better GPU than the PS3. The GPU in the PS3 had a hard time with shadows, and it stuck out like a sore thumb in games like COD Modern Warfare. Sony, at one point, thought about using a second CELL processor for a GPU, because of it power to calculate vectors. 3 PS3s together can do amazing Ray Tracing, which is finally being realized with NVidia’s RTX cards and the upcoming consoles.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLte5f34ya8

    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Naughty Dog is a more talented studio than anything MS had out of getting the most out of their hardware. PS3 most devs just had to brute force it. Sony and Nintendo are the best at getting the most out of their own hardware currently. MS makes good looking games but maxing it out the way the other 2 have never seemed as strong. TLOUII on PS4 is insane and Luigi's Mansion 3 should not be running on that tablet. Never really had that reaction personally with MS exclusives. Halo 4 looked great but next to TLOU it doesn't look nearly as special. I'm not a fan of their games but Ninja Theory might be that studio for MS now. Get the most out of the hardware.
    What about Guerrilla games?

    Killzone 2 took advantage of the Cell to create particle and lighting effects that were very impressive for their time.

    Last edited by gamevet; 03-09-2020 at 12:00 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Yes, MS hampers the performance with their Direct X API, but the 360 does have a better GPU than the PS3. The GPU in the PS3 had a hard time with shadows, and it stuck out like a sore thumb in games like COD Modern Warfare. Sony, at one point, thought about using a second CELL processor for a GPU, because of it power to calculate vectors. 3 PS3s together can do amazing Ray Tracing, which is finally being realized with NVidia’s RTX cards and the upcoming consoles.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLte5f34ya8



    What about Guerrilla games?

    Killzone 2 took advantage of the Cell to create particle and lighting effects that were very impressive for their time.

    Killzone had something where framerate and/or quality was different for single player vs multiplayer. I didn't have it, but remember my friend pointing it out (he loved that game)

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    I never played multiplayer on Killzone 2. I did play Resistance 2 online and it was awesome.

    *Edit*

    I guess I might have played a round or 2 of Killzone 2 online. I kind of remember having a saw blade gun that would jack people up....., or maybe that was Resistance.
    Last edited by gamevet; 03-09-2020 at 10:10 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #86
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Wasn't the Black Belt a little weaker? I don't recall seeing full details of the Black Belt GPU, but a lot of people thought the Black Belt GPU simply became the Voodoo Banshee. If not the same it certainly seems likely to be related. I know it was said to be based on the Voodoo2, but the Banshee is also based on the Voodoo2. How does the Banshee compare? I'm not quite sure how to gauge a PC graphics card against the GPU in a non-x86 game console. Although there were numerous PowerVR cards for PCs, I don't think any of them are identical or even very close to the Dreamcast's specific chip - and even if there was one, it probably benchmarks worse than its actual power due to different APIs etc.


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    I don't know how they'd perform in comparison, but given the chip size and memory amount (ie. the same cost), the PVR2 can give much performance than any Voodoo due to being more memory efficient. The voodoo was always more about brute forcing performance, which it could afford due to being a premium dedicated card.

    There's a reason one is dead while the other is now powering billions of devices.

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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    I don't know how they'd perform in comparison, but given the chip size and memory amount (ie. the same cost), the PVR2 can give much performance than any Voodoo due to being more memory efficient. The voodoo was always more about brute forcing performance, which it could afford due to being a premium dedicated card.

    There's a reason one is dead while the other is now powering billions of devices.
    I'm pretty sure "the reason one [3dfx] is dead" was not yet a thing as of the time we're talking about. The death of 3dfx is usually blamed on their acquisition of a major manufacturing firm, making 3dfx the sole manufacturer of 3dfx graphics cards. That deal happened after the Black Belt had fallen through. And it would've been impossible (contractually) if the Black Belt was used.


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  14. #89
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    PowerVR made good decisions both in hardware and management, 3dfx made bad decisions in both. Instead of dicking around with the VSA chips, they should've pushed Rampage as soon as possible; it was a Geforce 4 equivalent card that they could've released in early 2000 against the Geforce 2.

    And it wasn't just having an exclusive manufacturer, but also that they lacked a proper OEM card. Nvidia built up their money through OEM sales, they simply responded to market needs better - unlike 3dfx, or Sega for that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I never played multiplayer on Killzone 2. I did play Resistance 2 online and it was awesome.

    *Edit*

    I guess I might have played a round or 2 of Killzone 2 online. I kind of remember having a saw blade gun that would jack people up....., or maybe that was Resistance.
    I know for a fact that Resistance 2 has a saw blade gun, it was very useful in parts of the single player game, great for gutting tons of chimera..lol. I'm currantly playing through Killzone 2 and have not run in to that type of gun yet.

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