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Thread: In your opinion is the console industry cartelized?

  1. #61
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    That reminds me, Microsoft was supposedly on the way to finally start turning a profit on consoles with the XBox One. Then they fucked that up horribly before launch :v
    MS has made a profit for every quarter for this entire generation. The Xbox group along makes bring in more revenue in a single quarter than SEGA net worth in the CSK days. So I don't really know why you're getting your facts from, buts its not correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Xbox One is profitable, because it's built with cheap technology. Even the One X is using an (updated) GPU that is a updated version of their much older Tonga GPUs.
    Both the GPU inside the PS4 and Xbox One had SONY and MS slash out over $1 billion dollars each. It's not really that cheap and just because one is using updated PC components for your hardware doesn't make it cheaper to sell at retail (Ok yes much less in R&D) I mean both SEGA and MS lost loads with the DC and OG Xbox never mind they used PC Tech to power them

    Nothing cheap about the Xbox One X cooling and GPU systems. Sure this gen both corps are selling hardware at massive losses, but I would guess with near 60 million paying subscribers for LIVE and more or less the same for PSN That's where the real money is coming from, along with royalties off games sales (Add in Gamepass where MS is getting monthly revenue each and every month)

    But I stand to be corrected
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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  3. #63
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    The GPU inside of the One X is AMD’s RX580. You can buy that graphics card for a little over $150 now.
    https://www.bestbuy.com/site/xfx-amd...E&gclsrc=aw.ds


    I doubt that MS is paying more than $75 for that mobile CPU, maybe $100 for the GPU chip and $100 for the memory. That leaves them over $225 for the rest of the hardware.

    I have an 8 year old 2500k that has more processing power than both of those consoles combined.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    You don't seem to understand at the start of the process the likes of MS or SONY sign billion dollar deals for the chipset . Also the One X is a little more than a RX . It's not cheap making a console, even with PC tech .
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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  5. #65
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Probably worth remembering that consoles aren't running lots of applications at once nor an antivirus that loves to slow down everything nor has to use an unoptimal bus configuration because of the potential that arbitrary parts may be swapped in and out. Also the part where developers can optimize for the quirks of a particular kind of hardware more safely. All that makes it easier to get more out of weaker hardware.

    Mind, the current consoles are old on top of that, we're supposedly entering a new generation next year after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    You don't seem to understand at the start of the process the likes of MS or SONY sign billion dollar deals for the chipset . Also the One X is a little more than a RX . It's not cheap making a console, even with PC tech .
    They signed a deal for AMD to build the fabs and manufacture the chips. It's not like they are losing money on this. I'm pretty sure that MS and Sony had to order X amount of chips for the deal to go through.

    The GPU inside of the One X APU is about 3% faster than a stock 580. It's old tech for AMD now.

    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-spec...ne-x-gpu.c2977

    https://www.pcgamer.com/heres-how-mi...pares-to-a-pc/

    Quote Originally Posted by pcgamer
    If you were to buy something equivalent, expect an AMD RX 580 or GeForce GTX 1060, but those desktop graphics cards have less video memory.

    Scorpio's generous RAM capacity and high bandwidth come into play because Scorpio is poised to do 4K gaming—although we're not sure if this will apply across all titles. You're essentially looking at up to 15-percent better performance from Scorpio than a plain RX 480. We figure performance will be close to the RX 580, but with more bandwidth.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Probably worth remembering that consoles aren't running lots of applications at once nor an antivirus that loves to slow down everything nor has to use an unoptimal bus configuration because of the potential that arbitrary parts may be swapped in and out. Also the part where developers can optimize for the quirks of a particular kind of hardware more safely. All that makes it easier to get more out of weaker hardware.

    Mind, the current consoles are old on top of that, we're supposedly entering a new generation next year after all.
    That may have been a thing back in the core 2 quad days, but the background stuff running doesn't even use 1% of a more modern 4 core cpu.

    Here's my old rigs running games, much better than the launch PS4 and Xbox One. The 2500K is from 2011, the GTX 670 is from 2012 and the GTX 780 is from 2013.

    Forza Horizon runs at 1080p/60fps on the GTX 780. The game runs at 30 fps on the XBox One.



    Here's DOOM running@ 1080p/60fps with the GTX 670. It runs with higher settings than the PS4 version.



    Notice how blurry the PS4 version of DOOM looks.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  8. #68

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    I can't stand PC elitists. It's always the graphics they talk about and never about playing the games. Can't we enjoy this stuff without turning into another "muh graphics" contest?
    Last edited by sull56ivan2010; 12-07-2019 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sull56ivan2010 View Post
    I can't stand PC elitists. It's always the graphics they talk about and never about playing the games. Can't we enjoy this stuff without turning into another "muh graphics" contest?
    It has nothing to do with being a PC elitist. All I said was that I don't own an Xbox One, because I can play all of its games on a PC, one that is even older than the console.

    I have a PS4, which I play for exclusives and an occasional multi-platform game.

    And what's so wrong with wanting to play a game @ 60 fps, especially a racing game?
    Last edited by gamevet; 12-07-2019 at 04:38 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    They signed a deal for AMD to build the fabs and manufacture the chips. It's not like they are losing money on this. I'm pretty sure that MS and Sony had to order X amount of chips for the deal to go through.
    Signing a billion-dollar contract, for just a GPU even before a single console is sold is a huge undertaking and massive investment, that's before one even looks at the cost of marketing and developing games for a console.
    Just because a console is using PC tech, does not mean its cheap for either SONY or MS. I don't doubt they're both not selling hardware at a loss, but I would imagine MS and SONY make far more money off their subscription services and game royalties

    I think it's quite the same in the Arcades where while SEGA is using basic PC tech, each boards cost over $1000 to an Arcade operator (with no game)
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    That may have been a thing back in the core 2 quad days, but the background stuff running doesn't even use 1% of a more modern 4 core cpu.

    Here's my old rigs running games, much better than the launch PS4 and Xbox One. The 2500K is from 2011, the GTX 670 is from 2012 and the GTX 780 is from 2013.
    I seem to remember the Asus Nvidia GeForce GTX 780 coming in at over $450 on its launch and that's just for the card alone. Hardly fair to compare it a console, more so when a brand new console comes with everything one needs in a box (even a Joypad)
    I've never seen the need or that's it's fair to compare consoles to PCs. Even in the '90s PC tech had the advantage for speed, memory, GFX and higher retail price.

    I do get while people love and dig the PC and also who doesn't want to play games in High Res and 60 to 120fps? My uncle used to be a PC nut (not so much now) Always had to get the latest tech for his PC and had a wonderful 3 screen display for his love of flight sims. I would up to his house and see games running that killed anything a console could muster, even in the day's of the PS2, PSX Ect. But it just wasn't for me and what my uncle spent on PC tech was nuts, more so back then when a new Wing Commander game meant a new GFX card

    That said I still remember how amazing it was to see games like TFX Euro Fighter, F1 GP 2, Wing Commander III, Battlefield 2 &3 or Half-Life II running on a PC, truly jaw-dropping stuff
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I seem to remember the Asus Nvidia GeForce GTX 780 coming in at over $450 on its launch and that's just for the card alone. Hardly fair to compare it a console, more so when a brand new console comes with everything one needs in a box (even a Joypad)
    I've never seen the need or that's it's fair to compare consoles to PCs. Even in the '90s PC tech had the advantage for speed, memory, GFX and higher retail price.
    It was much more than $450. I got mine shortly after the price dropped with the release of the 780Ti. You can get thatt card for @ $100 now. https://www.ebay.com/itm/EVGA-Nvidia...LX%7E&LH_BIN=1

    I could have just as easily used the 670 (this hasn't been my main rig since 2014), but I had recently moved the 780 over after getting a GX 1080. The GTX 670 could run Forza Horizon 4 on medium settings @1080p/60. I also use Xbox 360 controllers, and I'm thinking about getting a PS4 controller for my new rig, since it has blue tooth.


    I do get while people love and dig the PC and also who doesn't want to play games in High Res and 60 to 120fps? My uncle used to be a PC nut (not so much now) Always had to get the latest tech for his PC and had a wonderful 3 screen display for his love of flight sims. I would up to his house and see games running that killed anything a console could muster, even in the day's of the PS2, PSX Ect. But it just wasn't for me and what my uncle spent on PC tech was nuts, more so back then when a new Wing Commander game meant a new GFX card

    That said I still remember how amazing it was to see games like TFX Euro Fighter, F1 GP 2, Wing Commander III, Battlefield 2 &3 or Half-Life II running on a PC, truly jaw-dropping stuff
    Technology moved a lot quicker back then. Now everything is about shrinking down the node to increase performance per watt. Still, until last month I had been using my i7-4790K rig, until I upgraded to the 9900K. I usually keep a GPU for about 2.5 to 3 years before upgrading. I kept my GTX 460 sli setup from 2010-2013, my 780 from 2014 to 2017 and I'll keep my 1080 until Nvidie releases the 3000 GPUs.

    The new thing is the ultr-wide monitors. Its not my thing; I opted for 1440p/144hz with G-Sync.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Signing a billion-dollar contract, for just a GPU even before a single console is sold is a huge undertaking and massive investment, that's before one even looks at the cost of marketing and developing games for a console.
    Just because a console is using PC tech, does not mean its cheap for either SONY or MS. I don't doubt they're both not selling hardware at a loss, but I would imagine MS and SONY make far more money off their subscription services and game royalties

    I think it's quite the same in the Arcades where while SEGA is using basic PC tech, each boards cost over $1000 to an Arcade operator (with no game)
    It's an APU. Basically AMD updated their mobile Bobcat CPUs to what they called Jaguar and integrated it into one chip with the GPU. Believe me, AMD was the one doing the investing, because they wanted Sony and MS's business. Sony posted really good profit margins for their game division in 2014, so it's not like they were losing money after the 1st year.

    https://www.geek.com/games/sony-says...table-1594697/

    Quote Originally Posted by geek
    When both Sony and Microsoft decided to embrace an x86 architecture for their new consoles, they automatically cut costs because x86 is such a common architecture. While that allowed the price of this generation of hardware to be cheaper for the consumer, it didn’t guarantee a profit on each sale of the console from launch day.

    Typically a console manufacturer will take a hit on the cost of the hardware knowing they will get the money back eventually on game sales and through falling manufacturing costs. The quicker they can do this, the better. And it seems Sony has already achieved hardware profitability with the PS4 Best Price at Amazon just 7 months after launch.

    Confirmation that the PS4 hardware is turning a profit comes from CEO Kazuo Hirai during a corporate strategy meeting held this week, although specific numbers weren’t shared. When you consider there’s already over 7 million PS4 in homes, and it continues to outpace sales of the Xbox One, that’s great news for Sony as a company considering it posted a net loss of $1.26 billion last year.
    Last edited by gamevet; 12-08-2019 at 01:51 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Technology moved a lot quicker back then. Now everything is about shrinking down the node to increase performance per watt. Still, until last month I had been using my i7-4790K rig, until I upgraded to the 9900K. I usually keep a GPU for about 2.5 to 3 years before upgrading. I kept my GTX 460 sli setup from 2010-2013, my 780 from 2014 to 2017 and I'll keep my 1080 until Nvidie releases the 3000 GPUs.
    I never forget seeing the likes of TFX Euro Fighter or Falcon 4 for the 1st time. The GFX just killed everything a console could muster.

    I could have just as easily used the 670 (this hasn't been my main rig since 2014), but I had recently moved the 780 over after getting a GX 1080
    And that's the best and also worst part of the PC; The need to upgrade. Nothing on a PC is really unified or standard not even the price of a rig (one place will be offering a differnt spec and price to the next) . With a console, everything you need is that box even the wire to hook it up to the TV and most shops will sell the unit at the same price and also no matter when you buy the console in question (at launch or right at the end of the gen) every game for that platform will look at run the same

    Believe me, AMD was the one doing the investing, because they wanted Sony and MS's business
    The CPU wasn't great, the GPU's were still quite decent and even though it was using PC Tech as its foundation. It still needed a sizeable investment from both MS and SONY to get the chips into a console size factor.
    A billion-dollar deal just for a GPU is beyond a lot of corps before they even start to sell a console, even our SEGA these days
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    And that's the best and also worst part of the PC; The need to upgrade. Nothing on a PC is really unified or standard not even the price of a rig (one place will be offering a differnt spec and price to the next) . With a console, everything you need is that box even the wire to hook it up to the TV and most shops will sell the unit at the same price and also no matter when you buy the console in question (at launch or right at the end of the gen) every game for that platform will look at run the same.
    I see people all of the time talking about how they are still on their old CPU and GPU. Honestly, someone that had built their own PC back in 2013, using discounted (outdated parts) could have the same level of gaming performance as someone that had paid $400-$500 for the Xbox One, or PS4 back when they had launched.

    The CPU wasn't great, the GPU's were still quite decent and even though it was using PC Tech as its foundation. It still needed a sizeable investment from both MS and SONY to get the chips into a console size factor.
    A billion-dollar deal just for a GPU is beyond a lot of corps before they even start to sell a console, even our SEGA these days
    I'm not sold on that idea. AMD was already putting out APUs, long before the PS4 and Xbox One were created. The APUs in the Xbox One and PS4 were updated designs of a previous AMD APU, and as I've shown, Sony was already showing profits within 7 months of the console's release. Obviously, Sony wouldn't be showing profits, if they had invested a billion dollars in R&D; those profits wouldn't have been there. I'm thinking that the Billion dollar investment you're are talking about, was Sony and MS writing out a check to order X amount of chips for their consoles. MS was losing money, because they were bundling their worthless Kinect with every Xbox One console.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  15. #75
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    What intrigues me most in the industry is the irrational desire to always want to change / destroy things, there are no fixed guidelines, not if you feel it the same way but with each generation we get the imminence that the market can collapse in quality, With every release of unwanted phenomena like Fortinit, Wii, Pubg, Gamepass you may not have noticed but the initial failure of Xbox One is deeply linked to the success of the Wii, the market itself has stopped subsidizing hardware (and thus ultimately generating worse technical quality in general) by This influence, if the market really regulates itself as the theoretical optimists say, will it take how long for things to go back as before? 20 more years? In my opinion, we are the ones who need to be the regulator who is burying new competitors in the switch and console industry, things only change if someone changes them.

    The truth is that the consumer has no way of giving their opinion about the consumer goods offered to them, someone tries to email Miyamoto or talk to Takashi Lizuka stop making Sonic according to your interests and vanity. The industry would rather spend a fortune convincing us to accept mediocrity than backtrack on its bad ideas.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 12-09-2019 at 06:46 AM.

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