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Thread: SEGA Saturn a Historical Revisionism

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heresy Dragon View Post
    The last PS1 game released was in 2005, not 2000. The PS3 came out in 2007, not 2014, when the last PS2 game was released. These consoles had much longer lifespans than you believe. Just because a successor is released, doesn't mean that that console dies on that day. As you said, games were still released for the Mega Drive after 1995 even though the Saturn was already out and the new console generation had started, meaning the Mega Drive wasn't "dead" just because SEGA was now supporting the Saturn.

    Yes, the Saturn and PS1 were the main consoles come 1995, but that doesn't mean there weren't people still playing their Mega Drives and SNESs during this time - it was just a smaller market, much like the Master System and NES were while the Mega Drive and SNES were the main consoles during the early 90s. Me and many of my friends got our Master Systems in 1991 or 92 and there were still huge selections of games for sale for the system in the shops until the mid 90s. There's no reason SEGA couldn't have done something similar with the Mega Drive too until the late 90s.
    Is there a list of the last first-party games by console? Third parties tend to keep going much longer, like how Tectoy kept making SMS games until 1997 or Ubisoft just published a new Wii game a couple months ago. With first parties it's usually over within 2-3 years after the next generation comes out.

    The PS2 may be the exception to the rule because it's still the best selling console of all time, I felt like I saw it everywhere. Also the Neo Geo had 14 years of first-party support, but not really your typical console.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I agree 3D games wouldn't work. But take something like Comix Zone, adding a lot of colors could really enhance the visuals. Or Ristar. Maybe add a 3D bonus stage just like Chaotix but keep the rest in 2D. I have no way of knowing if that would have helped but considering what did happen it's hard to believe things could have gone worse.
    Again, asking people to buy a slightly upgraded Genesis, just to get more colors doesn't make sense at all. Who is that audience?

    Say this supposed console was $150. Would you have been willing to spend that for a slight upgrade over the hardware you already have?

    If you ask me, Sega should have done something simular to what Nintendo did with the N64. They put out StarFox 64 with the RAM jumper and then released games that supported the extra RAM. Sega could have put out Virtua Racing with an included (more powerful) SVP cartridge, and then released games that supported that cartridge interface. Another band aid console, or expensive add-on wasn't needed.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Again, asking people to buy a slightly upgraded Genesis, just to get more colors doesn't make sense at all. Who is that audience?

    Say this supposed console was $150. Would you have been willing to spend that for a slight upgrade over the hardware you already have?

    If you ask me, Sega should have done something simular to what Nintendo did with the N64. They put out StarFox 64 with the RAM jumper and then released games that supported the extra RAM. Sega could have put out Virtua Racing with an included (more powerful) SVP cartridge, and then released games that supported that cartridge interface. Another band aid console, or expensive add-on wasn't needed.
    No I wouldn't but that isn't what I'm suggesting lol. I'm not saying to make any change to the 32X as it was. I'm saying once it was designed every new first party Genesis game should have had a few 32X-specific features. That way it doesn't come off looking like a temporary band-aid solution and Sega can legitimately claim they are standing behind their products. It would have cost a bit more per game to do this, but to introduce a new system and then drop it months later damages a company's reputation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    No I wouldn't but that isn't what I'm suggesting lol. I'm not saying to make any change to the 32X as it was. I'm saying once it was designed every new first party Genesis game should have had a few 32X-specific features. That way it doesn't come off looking like a temporary band-aid solution and Sega can legitimately claim they are standing behind their products. It would have cost a bit more per game to do this, but to introduce a new system and then drop it months later damages a company's reputation.
    Yes, but there is no way that the Genesis is going to handle anything remotely close to Star Wars Arcade, short of making a seperate program with a sprite based version of the game. You're basically going to have to have 2 seperate programs on the same cart. It's not like Rogue Squadron on the N64, where those that have the RAM expansion pack will get a higher resolution version of the game, because it has the added higher res textures on the cart.
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    You might be able toget away with a reasonable sized bi-compatible rom if all of the assets are Genesis spec and the 32X mode adds additional layering or objects or scales/rotates Genesis assets. Even just adding 32X sound samples would go a long way for Genesis games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    I mean technically, sure. I just don't consider 'sports' only consumer audience to be representative of the main stream system audience - regardless of their purchasing power. It's no different than the CoD only players of the PS3/360 era. If it a system is 'alive' but the general demographic is reduced to budget and sports consumers.. what is that really indicating? That doesn't tell me the system is strong, it tells me it's dying. And yes, there's going to be kids 'stuck' with retro systems at the tail end of its life, but a two year overlap in new tech? Technically, 3 or so if you count 3DO. The only thing keeping it from tanking sharply is the limited disposable income of kids and teens. The envy and desire is always going to be the new stuff. Alive and healthy, is not what I would describe the Genesis in 1996 (nor the SNES). Some profit still left in it? Sure. But I would say more like on life support, because things this like don't have nice linear tapper offs.
    Things like CoD and sports games can be system sellers. Xbox 360 had nothing but military shooters plus Idolmaster and Lost Planet for its first few years, and the new Fifa when the PS2 came out made everyones jaws drop to the floor. When the first "nextgen" showcase demos came out for the PS3/X360 generation, it was a demo video of Madden. Even for the Genesis, one of Tom Kalinskes tactic for gaining the US market was adopting more sports titles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heresy Dragon View Post
    The last PS1 game released was in 2005, not 2000. The PS3 came out in 2007, not 2014, when the last PS2 game was released. These consoles had much longer lifespans than you believe. Just because a successor is released, doesn't mean that that console dies on that day. As you said, games were still released for the Mega Drive after 1995 even though the Saturn was already out and the new console generation had started, meaning the Mega Drive wasn't "dead" just because SEGA was now supporting the Saturn.

    Yes, the Saturn and PS1 were the main consoles come 1995, but that doesn't mean there weren't people still playing their Mega Drives and SNESs during this time - it was just a smaller market, much like the Master System and NES were while the Mega Drive and SNES were the main consoles during the early 90s. Me and many of my friends got our Master Systems in 1991 or 92 and there were still huge selections of games for sale for the system in the shops until the mid 90s. There's no reason SEGA couldn't have done something similar with the Mega Drive too until the late 90s.
    Let's not go on the last game , but let's look at when a corps launches its successor console . You really expect SONY In House Teams to be working on PS4 games next year ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Things like CoD and sports games can be system sellers. Xbox 360 had nothing but military shooters plus Idolmaster and Lost Planet for its first few years, and the new Fifa when the PS2 came out made everyones jaws drop to the floor. When the first "nextgen" showcase demos came out for the PS3/X360 generation, it was a demo video of Madden. Even for the Genesis, one of Tom Kalinskes tactic for gaining the US market was adopting more sports titles.
    Sports games were an appeal before Tom joined SEGA. That's to over look how SEGA Europe made sport a big part of its appeal with sponsoring F1 and the English Premiership and how the Mega Drive in the UK had most sports covered even Cricket and Snooker
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Yes, but there is no way that the Genesis is going to handle anything remotely close to Star Wars Arcade, short of making a seperate program with a sprite based version of the game. You're basically going to have to have 2 seperate programs on the same cart. It's not like Rogue Squadron on the N64, where those that have the RAM expansion pack will get a higher resolution version of the game, because it has the added higher res textures on the cart.
    I'm aware of that, that's why I suggested Chaotix instead since it started out as a Genesis title (Sonic Crackers) and presumably the engine could run entirely on the 68k. Then take Genesis titles like Ristar or Comix Zone (which have great graphics already) and give them extra colors, visual effects and sound channels. I agree it wouldn't work for a game like Star Wars or Virtua Fighter.

    All I'm suggesting is a way to keep software coming out for the 32X at minimal cost so more resources can go toward the Saturn. The main problem with the 32X was that it didn't get a lot of games. Making a new 32X game was expensive but if you're going to make a Genesis game anyway just give it a few extra enhancements and now you've got another 32X title, which can be sold to a much bigger audience. Cutting 32X support months after release and switching to the Saturn when it also had very few games was a disaster.
    Last edited by axel; 01-12-2020 at 09:04 AM.

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    no matter what strategy you make for Saturn and 32X, they would fail one way or another.

    Sony debuted in the console market with about 20 attitudes that allowed it to lead the industry, I'll start with the two that I think are main and definitive:

    1- Sony had strong third party support, devs who supported 3DO chose PS1 (they had choosen) as the console that had better royalities and development kits, nothing that SEGA could do could change that as both SEGA and Nintendo saw third parties as a necessary evil, but the SEGA's goals have always been to privilege its first party games over third party games.

    2-The second measure was Sony's purchase of temporary exclusivity, the year was 1995 so temporary exclusivity was basically total exclusivity, how many people didn't think tomb raider was exclusive to PS1 marketing.

    These two measurements made Saturn in its first year an unattractive console and people aren't to blame, the major third party releases had been confiscated by ps1, and when the N64 came in 1996 with Mario 64, Saturn was forgotten, it was seen by the public as an unnecessary console, This is perspective creation and once created it is difficult and reversing. .

    as Saturn was too expensive to manufacture and export. Sega decides to discontinue the console in the west and focus only on the japanese market. that was the biggest mistake ever they should have insisted and should not have listened to Bernie Stolar who demanded a new console to be able to market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I'm aware of that, that's why I suggested Chaotix instead since it started out as a Genesis title (Sonic Crackers) and presumably the engine could run entirely on the 68k. Then take Genesis titles like Ristar or Comix Zone (which have great graphics already) and give them extra colors, visual effects and sound channels. I agree it wouldn't work for a game like Star Wars or Virtua Fighter.

    All I'm suggesting is a way to keep software coming out for the 32X at minimal cost so more resources can go toward the Saturn. The main problem with the 32X was that it didn't get a lot of games. Making a new 32X game was expensive but if you're going to make a Genesis game anyway just give it a few extra enhancements and now you've got another 32X title, which can be sold to a much bigger audience. Cutting 32X support months after release and switching to the Saturn when it also had very few games was a disaster.
    People didnít buy a 32x to get enhanced Genesis games. 36 Great Holes (cues cheesy 80's porn music) with Fred Couples is a good example of a game that pissed off 32x owners, because it looked like any other golf game on the Genesis. Like I said, nobody would pay $150 to get a prettier looking Genesis game.
    Last edited by gamevet; 01-13-2020 at 12:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I'm aware of that, that's why I suggested Chaotix instead since it started out as a Genesis title (Sonic Crackers) and presumably the engine could run entirely on the 68k. Then take Genesis titles like Ristar or Comix Zone (which have great graphics already) and give them extra colors, visual effects and sound channels. I agree it wouldn't work for a game like Star Wars or Virtua Fighter..
    Sonic X also started out as a Mega Drive title. SEGA was just so silly back then. Ok while STI was making a Next-Gen Sonic title (which would take time) it really should have had the Sonic Team Japan who was working on Chaotix instead make a Sonic Game early in for the Saturn. To make sure it had Sonic games to go, like how it had different teams make Sonic on the Mega Drive and Mega CD. Comix Zone was a stunning title, but really should have been a launch Saturn title with 24Bit colour backgrounds, 2 player mode and a CDDA soundtrack

    And its easy to say now, but I also wanted SEGA to buy out CORE in 1994, but bloody US Gold bought them instead. Given how amazing CORE Design on the Mega CD, most of CORE all for SEGA too. I so wanted SEGA to have been the one's more so as SEGA Europe didn't have a In-House team at that stage.
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    Could you imagine how different the early years of Saturn would have been if they owned Core? They would of had Tomb Raider exclusive to the console.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Could you imagine how different the early years of Saturn would have been if they owned Core? They would of had Tomb Raider exclusive to the console.
    They did have Tomb Raider as an exclusive for 6 months.

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    Yeah, I know. SEGA should have locked that up.

    I remember going to Electronics Boutique hoping to buy the Saturn version of Tomb Raider and it not being there. Sony supposedly got a week or so head start on the game, with the Saturn game either being delayed a couple of weeks, or purposely in short supply. I ended up getting it for PlayStation instead.
    Last edited by gamevet; 01-14-2020 at 10:37 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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