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Thread: SEGA Saturn a Historical Revisionism

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Could you imagine how different the early years of Saturn would have been if they owned Core? They would have had Tomb Raider exclusive to the console.
    Yeah and it's not looking back with the benefit of hindsight either. With CORE amazing work on the Mega CD I wanted SEGA to buy them before ThunderHawk II made it to the Saturn, never mind Tomb Raider.
    Still back in those days I wanted SEGA to buy Tiburon after their work on Madden and Soviet Strike, Lobotomy and also Zyrinx and Lemon.


    Speaking of Tomb Raider Would really like to have seen how well Tomb Raider II was running on the Saturn too. I remember Jason Gosling (Tomb Raider II Saturn coder) saying how it was much improved over the 1st game on Saturn and he was enjoying using the latest version of the SGL (think it was version 1.3) in 96 not long before SONY bought the rights
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  2. #167
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    I would like to even just see how the original Tomb Raider would have turned out if they continued pushing hard on it and polishing it instead of switching priority to the Playstation version.

    Fighting Force was already impressive in its early state.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  3. #168
    Death Adder's minion Wools's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    The problems with the Saturn were evident from day one, it had one of the worst launches of any console in history (and it was coming right on the heels of the 32X, another failure). Sony is by no means perfect but they were able to capitalize on mistakes from their rivals. A lot of the other things you mention would have happened anyway:

    -Arcades had been in decline for a decade and were only temporarily bolstered by one on one fighters and titles like Daytona USA in the early 90s.
    I disagree with these 2 sentiments.

    The Saturn launched with Virtua Fighter and it was an excellent port of the Arcade game, I wouldn't call that launch as one of the worst console launches of all time!

    Also, the idea that the Arcade was in decline and effected the Saturn is only partially true. I would argue that the Arcades were still front and centre in the hardcore gamers mind so having an Arcade perfect port was still a boon and that translated into sales. If you look at the Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Sega Rally and Time Crisis sales and critical reception during the 32-bit era, that shows the Arcades were still important in the home market. However, during the end of the 90's, Sony and their developers really started to make more of the medium with unique genres and refinments to exisiting genres that took full advantage of the 32-bit power. This is where Sega got caught out and had little in the way of unique experiances that weren't directly inherited from the Arcade. This of course changed with the Dreamcast but by then, it was far too late in the mainstream publics perception of Sega.

    God, I miss that era the more as time goes on.

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    The arcades were in the decline in North America. You wouldnt see an arcade in every mall, like you did the previous decade. Virtua Fighter was not a big hit in North America, and I doubt that most of the people that played Virtua Fighter 2 had never even played it in arcades, because arcades had shrunk even more by 1995. Id never even played SEGA Rally in an arcade, before playing it on Saturn. It would be many years later, where Id play it at a Dave and Busters.

    Virtua Fighter wasnt close to being arcade perfect, but it still had all of the charm and fun of the arcade game. I played it daily for over a month after I got my Saturn.
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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Sega Rally was massive in the Arcades and on the Saturn . On its Pal release the Saturn version was the fastest selling CD ROM game ever in the UK. Tekken 1, 2, 3 sold millions of units, Virtual Cop , Time Crisis will all big hitters too. Daytona USA was a rushed port and that's what hurt it's sales and I wouldn't really expect a Rally game to do well In the USA, in the UK you had Arcade cabs every where

    Arcade gaming still had its fans and carried a lot of weight untill the late 90s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wools View Post
    I disagree with these 2 sentiments.

    The Saturn launched with Virtua Fighter and it was an excellent port of the Arcade game, I wouldn't call that launch as one of the worst console launches of all time!

    Also, the idea that the Arcade was in decline and effected the Saturn is only partially true. I would argue that the Arcades were still front and centre in the hardcore gamers mind so having an Arcade perfect port was still a boon and that translated into sales. If you look at the Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Sega Rally and Time Crisis sales and critical reception during the 32-bit era, that shows the Arcades were still important in the home market. However, during the end of the 90's, Sony and their developers really started to make more of the medium with unique genres and refinments to exisiting genres that took full advantage of the 32-bit power. This is where Sega got caught out and had little in the way of unique experiances that weren't directly inherited from the Arcade. This of course changed with the Dreamcast but by then, it was far too late in the mainstream publics perception of Sega.

    God, I miss that era the more as time goes on.
    The port was not that good, hence why Sega was handing out copies of VF Remix only months later.
    You're right about hardcore gamers but they weren't that big of a group. By the mid '90s most people had moved on from arcades because everyone already had a console at home and overall it cost less, in the arcade you would spend $1 every few minutes. If you lived in an area where the arcades were still popular I envy you but that wasn't common, look at the sales numbers. In Japan it was different and the Saturn did much better there.

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The arcades were in the decline in North America. You wouldnt see an arcade in every mall, like you did the previous decade. Virtua Fighter was not a big hit in North America, and I doubt that most of the people that played Virtua Fighter 2 had never even played it in arcades, because arcades had shrunk even more by 1995. Id never even played SEGA Rally in an arcade, before playing it on Saturn. It would be many years later, where Id play it at a Dave and Busters.

    Virtua Fighter wasnt close to being arcade perfect, but it still had all of the charm and fun of the arcade game. I played it daily for over a month after I got my Saturn.
    That wasn't the case in Vancouver at least. Not only were dedicated arcades going strong and cabs were everywhere, movie theatres and mall began setting up larger arcade sections than ever.

    Even the arcades at mainstream malls were bringing in imports from Japan. The biggest mall in Metro Vancouver built a new entertainment themed expansion and the the biggest businesses were a new theatre and a massive multi-level arcade.

    https://604now.com/playdium-metrotown-burnaby/amp/
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Death Adder's minion Wools's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The arcades were in the decline in North America. You wouldnt see an arcade in every mall, like you did the previous decade. Virtua Fighter was not a big hit in North America, and I doubt that most of the people that played Virtua Fighter 2 had never even played it in arcades, because arcades had shrunk even more by 1995. Id never even played SEGA Rally in an arcade, before playing it on Saturn. It would be many years later, where Id play it at a Dave and Busters.
    Sad to hear that the Arcade was in decline in the US. There's no question that Arcades didn't have the same cultural relevance as they did in the 1970's - 80's, but they were the place to experience bleeding edge graphics in the UK and seemed to still have that thrill in the mid to late 90's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Sega Rally was massive in the Arcades and on the Saturn . On its Pal release the Saturn version was the fastest selling CD ROM game ever in the UK. Tekken 1, 2, 3 sold millions of units, Virtual Cop , Time Crisis will all big hitters too. Daytona USA was a rushed port and that's what hurt it's sales and I wouldn't really expect a Rally game to do well In the USA, in the UK you had Arcade cabs every where

    Arcade gaming still had its fans and carried a lot of weight untill the late 90s
    Hi Team Andromeda, I didn't expect to bump into you on here away from NTSC-UK! As you say, Arcades in the eyes of the hardcore gamer in the UK were the promised land so if a home console was replicating a game well, it was alright in our books!

    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    The port was not that good, hence why Sega was handing out copies of VF Remix only months later.
    You're right about hardcore gamers but they weren't that big of a group. By the mid '90s most people had moved on from arcades because everyone already had a console at home and overall it cost less, in the arcade you would spend $1 every few minutes. If you lived in an area where the arcades were still popular I envy you but that wasn't common, look at the sales numbers. In Japan it was different and the Saturn did much better there.
    At the time, all reviews of VF on Saturn were excellent and time has been kind to the port, the Edge mafgazine 9 / 10 got me well hyped for it. Alhough it's not 1:1 with the AM2 Arcade game, it was received well at the time and I feel most people think of it as a good version.

    Although hardcore gamers are obviously the smallest group of potential players, at the time, it was generally only hardcore players who purchased and played consoles on release so it made sense to cater for us lot with great ports of the best Arcade games and I feel Sega done just that. Well, the less said about the first port of Daytona USA the better!

  9. #174
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    That wasn't the case in Vancouver at least. Not only were dedicated arcades going strong and cabs were everywhere, movie theatres and mall began setting up larger arcade sections than ever.

    Even the arcades at mainstream malls were bringing in imports from Japan. The biggest mall in Metro Vancouver built a new entertainment themed expansion and the the biggest businesses were a new theatre and a massive multi-level arcade.

    https://604now.com/playdium-metrotown-burnaby/amp/

    Thats a supercade. We had a Gameworks (supercade) at Grapevine Mills mall that closed around 2005. It opened in 1997, and that is where I think I finally saw a SEGA Rally machine, not D&B. Most of the deluxe SEGA arcade games I played were at either a Supercade, an adult entertainment place like D&B, or at a large Putt Putt Golf location in Plano. Putt Putt was the only place that Id seen (not in the malls) Star Wars: Ep1 racer and Star
    Wars arcade.


    I frequented malls all over Dallas/Fort Worth and had 2 large malls by my apartment in the mid 90s. The arcade in Prestonwood Mall stopped getting new machines after @1994 and closed down after the Street Fighter craze died down. The other mall, Valley View, had a couple of arcades that came and went; they didnt carry the more expensive hardware, because they were small operations. The Parks Mall in Arlington (other side of the metroplex) had a large arced below the food court, but it stopped updating its machines by the mid 90s and started brining in ticket redemption games instead. The smaller arcades stopped updating their games, held on for as long as they could and folded.
    Last edited by gamevet; 01-15-2020 at 12:36 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    The port was not that good, hence why Sega was handing out copies of VF Remix only months later.
    You're right about hardcore gamers but they weren't that big of a group. By the mid '90s most people had moved on from arcades because everyone already had a console at home and overall it cost less, in the arcade you would spend $1 every few minutes.
    The Saturn port of VF was excellent, it looked amazing and sounded amazing (still sounds amazing) and AM#2 nailed the gameplay and controls . But this was in Nov 94. I have no idea why SEGA didn't launch in the West with VF Remix or just look to keep VF a pack in title only.
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  11. #176
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Virtua Fighter was a pack-in title back in May of 1995. SEGA sent me a free copy of VF remix in the fall.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wools View Post
    Sad to hear that the Arcade was in decline in the US. There's no question that Arcades didn't have the same cultural relevance as they did in the 1970's - 80's, but they were the place to experience bleeding edge graphics in the UK and seemed to still have that thrill in the mid to late 90's.



    Hi Team Andromeda, I didn't expect to bump into you on here away from NTSC-UK! As you say, Arcades in the eyes of the hardcore gamer in the UK were the promised land so if a home console was replicating a game well, it was alright in our books!



    At the time, all reviews of VF on Saturn were excellent and time has been kind to the port, the Edge mafgazine 9 / 10 got me well hyped for it. Alhough it's not 1:1 with the AM2 Arcade game, it was received well at the time and I feel most people think of it as a good version.

    Although hardcore gamers are obviously the smallest group of potential players, at the time, it was generally only hardcore players who purchased and played consoles on release so it made sense to cater for us lot with great ports of the best Arcade games and I feel Sega done just that. Well, the less said about the first port of Daytona USA the better!
    Hello boss. Yeah Arcades were still big in the UK in 94/95/96 and we also had SEGA Europe opening SEGA worlds in the likes of London and Bournemouth Ect . I didn't notice a decline till 1999, when Arcades were either shutting down or moving to Fruit machines.

    Arcade games still helped to sell consoles and also did well on consoles In the mid 90s . Tekken 3 was huge in the Arcades and home, even crap like Crusin USA did the business in the Arcades and home and I remember seeing House of the Dead, Sega Rally and Gun Blade NY cabs in nearly every Arcade in the UK

    Daytona USA was hurt but it looking crap on the Saturn. It wasn't ready or finished , but SEGA rushed it out sadly. The only good thing, was it was the making of AM#2 on the Saturn . Their pride was hurt and after that, looked to push the Saturn to insane lengths and were the 1sr to show off the Saturn High Res mode.
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    You know maybe I'm remembering it wrong, I looked at some numbers and the arcades were still bringing in decent money in 1995.
    See this article for example, there's a graph halfway down that shows the numbers on mouseover:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...umping-in-2019

    In 1995 the arcades still had the highest market share at $14 billion, with consoles and handhelds at $5 bn each and PC gaming at $10 bn.
    I was surprised to see that but in retrospect maybe I shouldn't be, I was getting more into PC gaming at the time too.

    So I guess you guys are right, the arcade was alive and well at the time of the Saturn release.

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    You know maybe I'm remembering it wrong, I looked at some numbers and the arcades were still bringing in decent money in 1995.
    See this article for example, there's a graph halfway down that shows the numbers on mouseover:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...umping-in-2019

    In 1995 the arcades still had the highest market share at $14 billion, with consoles and handhelds at $5 bn each and PC gaming at $10 bn.
    I was surprised to see that but in retrospect maybe I shouldn't be, I was getting more into PC gaming at the time too.

    So I guess you guys are right, the arcade was alive and well at the time of the Saturn release.
    That graph is meant to represent worldwide figures (I think), so it includes places like Japan where arcades were very strong through the end of the 90s.

    But honestly, what is the source of that graph? It's supplied by the industry analyst who is interviewed in the article from his own research.

    The strangest thing is that he shows almost no growth in the PC market from 1993 ($8 billion) to 2001 ($10 billion), but that seems incredibly hard to believe. That is the period that represents the explosion in PC gaming. How can there be no revenue growth?

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Id say by 1997, that arcade games were a non-factor on consoles. Even Nintendo really didnt hype Killer Instinct Gold in 1996, when they released it on the N64. Really, 1996 was the year when arcade games in the West took a back seat to console games.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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