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Thread: SEGA Saturn a Historical Revisionism

  1. #16
    WCPO Agent Greg2600's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The original launch date was September wasn't it ? Please tell us what NFL game came out for the Saturn then ? .Not that the Mega Drive or PS2 launched in the USA with a NFL games, but hey never mind.

    Let's all remember the 32X was the 1st system out of SEGA and SONY to get FIFA and Doom

    The fact were SEGA America were too sure the 32x would win and also couldn't handle a sequel to Sonic on their own .

    And Nintendo was ruthless with its America staff , never mind how the poor staff at Nintendo Europe were treated .UK call staff sacked with out even a notice .... In Nintendo the Japanese always call the shots ...
    There were no NFL 3D games in 1995 on any major platform, unless we count the 3DO. The 32X was simply Kalinske's hope to keep the Genesis alive, but SOA did not have the budget to develop those games along with the coming Saturn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    There were no NFL 3D games in 1995 on any major platform, unless we count the 3DO. The 32X was simply Kalinske's hope to keep the Genesis alive, but SOA did not have the budget to develop those games along with the coming Saturn.
    Unless we count Quarter back Club NFL. Still doesn't change the fact that even if the Saturn was rushed out , the planned launch date was September 1995 and even then still no NFL came from SEGA America ....
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  3. #18
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    There were no NFL 3D games in 1995 on any major platform, unless we count the 3DO. The 32X was simply Kalinske's hope to keep the Genesis alive, but SOA did not have the budget to develop those games along with the coming Saturn.
    No, the PlayStation had NFL Gameday. You'd think that it was 2D, by the looks of the players on the field, but it was all 3D modeled stadiums. EA cancelled their Madden game that season and wouldn't have a Madden game until 1996. Not having Madden really hurt the Saturn in the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The original launch date was September wasn't it ? Please tell us what NFL game came out for the Saturn then ? .Not that the Mega Drive or PS2 launched in the USA with a NFL games, but hey never mind.
    SOA could have certainly worked with EA to ensure that they had a Madden game ready for the fall of 1995. Let's not forget that Joe Montana football was designed by EA for the Genesis.

    Me personally, doesn't believe that Sega of America was planning on having the Saturn in 1995. Tom even said in interviews the previous year, that they had the hardware, but it was way too expensive to market. SOA was expecting the Saturn to come out much later. Marketing a $400 console was just insane, but my crazy ass bought one in May of 1995.
    Last edited by gamevet; 12-31-2019 at 08:46 PM.
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    I think it was 1998 when Gameday finally made the players 3D modeled. As for Madden 96 on PS1. Here is footage of it. Seems entirely isometric.


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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    I was not impressed with the move to 3D players for NFL Gameday or Madden during that generation. You can clearly see that the 1st NFL Gameday was a superior product, and even Madden 98 on the Saturn was pretty pathetic in comparison.

    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Yup. Madden on N64 was pretty bad as well. Team names were just the city. Colors and uniforms were wrong. Not even sure they got the NFL license. Maddens transition to 3D was a rocky one to say the least.

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    Madden on the N64 got a proper game in Madden 99. It was a superiour game to that of the Playstation version, and was an instance where you could clearly see that the N64 was superior 3D hardware.




    The limits of the cartridge were on full display though, with missing commentary, along with the lack of opening FMV video.

    Last edited by gamevet; 01-01-2020 at 02:14 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    SOA could have certainly worked with EA to ensure that they had a Madden game ready for the fall of 1995. Let's not forget that Joe Montana football was designed by EA for the Genesis.
    SO we go from SEGA to now EA?. Trouble was SEGA was too busy having the likes of EA, Core even id software work on the 32X. Quarterback Club was quite decent on the 32X but it should have been for the Saturn. Even with the so-called rushed date; Lets remember the interview with Tom K where he said he was asked for a response and came up with the decoy date SEGA America offerings in September 1995 was rubbish anyway

    SOA was expecting the Saturn to come out much later. Marketing a $400 console was just insane,
    So many used to make out the Saturn was hidden from SEGA America and there are always worries if Hardware will make it on time, let's remember the N64 was meant to come out in 1995 or the PS3 in 2005.
    I wouldn't even say too much but SEGA America was the 1st to show off the Saturn in January CES of 1994, it was more than clear than the Saturn would actually hit its street date of 1994. Yeah the price was crazy, but SONY Japan wasn't happy with the launch price of PS in the USA and staff paid with their jobs, never mind being hard to programme for, poor launch software, insane launch price and no NFL game never held back the PS3 and the N64 sold quite well despite not an easy system to develop on, crazy prices for games and again no NFL game for launch.

    If SEGA wasn't so busy trying to take market share and games development off its own platforms and just had one system to develop for, sell and push to 3rd parties. SEGA would have been in a much better place
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 01-01-2020 at 06:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Me personally, doesn't believe that Sega of America was planning on having the Saturn in 1995.
    Yes, I think we can safely say that. The 32X is sorely misunderstood - it was never intended to "extend the life of the Genesis" or be a "stopgap" or anything like that. Nakayama's words at the time make it clear that the company, on both sides of the Pacific, considered the 32X to be America's next-generation Sega console, at least for several years. This would make everybody happy. Kalinske wouldn't have to market an expensive console and he would be in control of the platform, and Japan could focus its efforts on developing Saturn games for its own market. They all believed that cost was the critical factor in the US market, and that low-cost would win out even with the trade-off of low performance.

    That all changed as the 32X approached launch and it was clear as day that the system would fail. Kalinske was envisioning a system that would have dozens of third-party developers and even a stand-alone version (Neptune), a system that would easily carry Sega for several years and hold its own against competitors. However, the 32X failed to interest almost any devs, got trashed by the gaming press, and had low public opinion from the beginning.

    The backlash was enormous. Suddenly, SOA found itself without a clear plan. It had just expended a huge amount of money and effort on the 32X, on development and marketing, and it was left completely dry. To make matters worse, the PlayStation was doing very well in Japan and was garnering a lot of support from developers in the US. Sega had almost no US-centric Saturn games in the pipeline. It had put all of its effort into 32X games for the US market.

    The decision was made to launch the Saturn in the US (Kalinske's words indicate he was in agreement with this as it was the only viable choice at the time - it's the May limited launch that he thought was too early). To not do so would probably have meant conceding a large part of the US market to Sony. Sega then had to re-write its marketing strategy, suddenly spinning the 32X as a cheap stepping stone into the 32-bit generation and focusing attention onto the Saturn (after having just done their best to draw attention away from the Saturn). Of course, nothing could fix the fact that Sega had no Saturn games ready for the US and its Japanese lineup wasn't going to win out against the PlayStation. To make matters worse, as Kalinske has said, SOA's developers had no idea how to program the Saturn and it took them a while playing catch-up. By then history was written.

  10. #25
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post

    The decision was made to launch the Saturn in the US (Kalinske's words indicate he was in agreement with this as it was the only viable choice at the time - it's the May limited launch that he thought was too early). To not do so would probably have meant conceding a large part of the US market to Sony. Sega then had to re-write its marketing strategy, suddenly spinning the 32X as a cheap stepping stone into the 32-bit generation and focusing attention onto the Saturn (after having just done their best to draw attention away from the Saturn). Of course, nothing could fix the fact that Sega had no Saturn games ready for the US and its Japanese lineup wasn't going to win out against the PlayStation. To make matters worse, as Kalinske has said, SOA's developers had no idea how to program the Saturn and it took them a while playing catch-up. By then history was written.
    I doubt programming for the 32X was that much easier than the Saturn, Given you had the dual SH-2's and also had to work with the Mega Drive CPU, Soundboard and also its GPU. Also if one looks at the software that came out from SOA in September 1995 it wasn't great and no NFL game at all,so even if SOA didn'tr rush the Saturn launch it wouldn't have been any better, more so for a NFL game . The day Sega Japan showed off the Saturn and told the world it was launch in Nov 94 was the day all work on the 32X should have stopped.

    I get that SEGA thought its price would be a winner for the 1st couple of years against the Saturn or PS but it was a horribly bad call. That's all it was a bad call and lots of corps make a terrible bad call.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    SO we go from SEGA to now EA?. Trouble was SEGA was too busy having the likes of EA, Core even id software work on the 32X. Quarterback Club was quite decent on the 32X but it should have been for the Saturn. Even with the so-called rushed date; Lets remember the interview with Tom K where he said he was asked for a response and came up with the decoy date SEGA America offerings in September 1995 was rubbish anyway
    I'm not going to get into your Tom bs, because it's just that.

    SOA would not be putting resources behind the 32X, if they really believed that the Saturn was going to be out in North America in 1995. I believe that they thought that it would launch in Japan during 1995 and come to the West about a year later. Japan needed the Saturn, because their Mega-Drive was a failure, while it was quite the opposite in the West. It's pretty odd that id Software would be working on the 32X version of DOOM, but would not have a hand in the Saturn version. You'd think that SOA would have been preparing DOOM for their flagship console, if they had known about a 1995 release date in their region. They certainly wouldn't be launching the 32X around the same time as the Saturn in Japan. It was just plain stupid on Japan's part.

    EA played a huge part in the success of the Genesis in the West. It sure as hell should have been ready for the Saturn at launch. Developers should have had dev kits for the Saturn well before 1994.



    So many used to make out the Saturn was hidden from SEGA America and there are always worries if Hardware will make it on time, let's remember the N64 was meant to come out in 1995 or the PS3 in 2005.
    You do realize that you just contradicted yourself with that statement right?


    I wouldn't even say too much but SEGA America was the 1st to show off the Saturn in January CES of 1994, it was more than clear than the Saturn would actually hit its street date of 1994. Yeah the price was crazy, but SONY Japan wasn't happy with the launch price of PS in the USA and staff paid with their jobs, never mind being hard to programme for, poor launch software, insane launch price and no NFL game never held back the PS3 and the N64 sold quite well despite not an easy system to develop on, crazy prices for games and again no NFL game for launch.

    Sega of America was not the 1st to show off the Saturn. It was SOJ at the June 1994 Tokyo Toy Show, which featured a wooden mockup of the console. SOA would not announce it until CES 1995 and a release date on Saturday (Saturnday) of September 1995.

    Nintendo's core audience wasn't sports gamers. It's core audience was Nintendo's own franchises. Sony pretty much took Sega's (western) core sports audience with the release of NFL Gameday and their other 989 sports titles. Sega had no answer to that, other than World Wide Soccer and World Series Baseball, and nobody cared about Soccer in North America at the time.

    If SEGA wasn't so busy trying to take market share and games development off its own platforms and just had one system to develop for, sell and push to 3rd parties. SEGA would have been in a much better place
    Uh....yeah! That's what I and Gryson have been saying. The 32X was a road block to that happening.
    Last edited by gamevet; 01-01-2020 at 08:04 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  12. #27
    WCPO Agent Greg2600's Avatar
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    There was quite a bit of internal SOA disagreement about the 32X and Neptune. Al Nilsen tried to kill the project numerous times. He knew that SOA and other devs simply didn't have the resources to properly support the 32X, not with the Saturn on the horizon. He was also of the belief it was better for the bottom line to sell software over hardware, which of course, it was. Whether that meant moving to onboard chipsets like the SVP I'm not sure, because obviously that didn't occur.

    Was the 32X a roadblock for the Saturn? I don't agree. They had already snuffed development on that platform with more than enough time to bang out first party stuff on the Saturn. They failed. No primary Sonic title, no follow ups to successful games like Ecco, Streets of Rage, Toe Jam and Earl, Strider, Phantasy Star, etc. Once again, most of the 3rd party games came out months if not a full YEAR after PC and PS1 versions did. The Saturn had a massive Japanese following, but almost none of that was translated/sold in USA or Europe. These things required money. SOA had none, because Japan had forced them to cut the Genesis off, and ruined them with a Saturn launch mess. Even the SEGA arcade ports on the Saturn were mostly buggy and all-around bad.

    Yet again, none of that would have mattered had SOJ done what was BEST for the company and accepted the Sony deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg2600 View Post
    There was quite a bit of internal SOA disagreement about the 32X and Neptune. Al Nilsen tried to kill the project numerous times. He knew that SOA and other devs simply didn't have the resources to properly support the 32X, not with the Saturn on the horizon. He was also of the belief it was better for the bottom line to sell software over hardware, which of course, it was. Whether that meant moving to onboard chipsets like the SVP I'm not sure, because obviously that didn't occur.

    Was the 32X a roadblock for the Saturn? I don't agree. They had already snuffed development on that platform with more than enough time to bang out first party stuff on the Saturn. They failed. No primary Sonic title, no follow ups to successful games like Ecco, Streets of Rage, Toe Jam and Earl, Strider, Phantasy Star, etc. Once again, most of the 3rd party games came out months if not a full YEAR after PC and PS1 versions did. The Saturn had a massive Japanese following, but almost none of that was translated/sold in USA or Europe. These things required money. SOA had none, because Japan had forced them to cut the Genesis off, and ruined them with a Saturn launch mess. Even the SEGA arcade ports on the Saturn were mostly buggy and all-around bad.

    Yet again, none of that would have mattered had SOJ done what was BEST for the company and accepted the Sony deal.
    First, FYI, Al Nilsen left Sega before the 32X was even a concept in anybody's mind. He left Sega for Viacom in 1993; the 32X was first conceptualized in January 1994. Yes, I know he said he "killed" the 32X four times, but he must have been talking about some unknown precursor projects.

    I think you underestimate the amount of time required to develop on a radically new platform like the Saturn. Just ask Chris Senn. Most decent projects seemed to be averaging 1.5 years. Panzer Dragoon started development in mid-late 1993. Sonic Team finished S&K in Oct 1994 and then took almost two years to release NiGHTS (July, 1996). And that was in Japan, at the heart of Saturn development. Kalinske has said (I think in the old 1Up interview) that SOA's developers had a hard time keeping up with the Saturn hardware and that's why they released so few games.

    Also, sad to see this "Japan bogeyman" stuff still persist on this forum. SOA never had as much independence as it did from the end of 1990 to the end of 1994. Nakayama basically gave Kalinske carte blanche to do the 32X at great cost to Japan (dozens of Japanese developers were assigned to develop 32X games for SOA, diversion of resources for 32X hardware manufacturing limited the number of Saturns that could be produced for Japan launch, etc.). Nakayama and Kalinske were both fully on board with the 32X for reasons stated in my previous post. Nakayama also never "cut the Genesis off" - he continued to praise the high sales of the Genesis throughout 1995 and 1996 and pledged more support for it.

    As for getting side tracked on that Sony business, I direct you here: https://mdshock.com/2019/03/18/sega-...er-came-to-be/

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    The update in June 2019 confirms that Tom wasn't lying.


    Then-vice president of Sega of America, Shinobu Toyoda, recently made the following statements about the possible Sega-Sony partnership:

    “There were discussions with Ken Kutaragi and the Sony engineering staff about the joint development of Sega’s next game console. Sony was first working with Nintendo, but they couldn’t reach an agreement and parted ways. After that, Sony wasn’t entirely against a partnership, but they started to consider entering the game market on their own. The president of Sony of America at that time was Mickey Schulhof, and he had a lot of influence within the company. At a Sony board meeting, he proposed, ‘Rather than developing a next generation console on our own, I think we should partner with Sega. How about giving it a try?’

    “The reason was that Sony of America had worked with Sega on FMV games such as Night Trap.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The update in June 2019 confirms that Tom wasn't lying.
    Right, but as we've already been over, TA thinks that Toyoda is lying because he mistakenly says Night Trap was a Sony game

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