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Thread: What the Saturn can exactly do that the Playstation cannot?

  1. #61
    Master of Shinobi
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    Except that special effects just mean that the game looks better, and better graphics were *always* important, regardless how well a console did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    True, but does Wipeout 2097 on the Saturn run and look so much worse than the PS version? And Wipopot 2097 is one of those games where the VDP2 can't be used that much. And when we have Saturn games that use the VDP2, we see its the PS version that loses the special effects like transparency and fake reflections with Thunder Force V, Street Racer, Souky Ect. Saying SONY can afford to lose more is such a cop-out (even if factually true). Think like that there was no way SEGA could match SONY on price or for specs. So SEGA did so well to get the Saturn's spec so close.
    Isnt Wipeout 2097 for the Saturn running on the Manx TT engine from Tantalus? Maybe if an engine was written from scratch for the Saturn port it would have run better...maybe using Sonic R type lightning and transparency FX. Sure, still not up to Playstation quality, but better than what we got. I mean, Tantalus engine doesnt even try with any Saturn defying graphical FX. It was pretty good for Manx TT, but maybe not for Wipeout 2097...

  3. #63
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    yes, but we are not saying the same thing, oranges and apples, you are saying how important the effects are and I am saying that the platform that dominates in sales decides what is most important. resolution for example 360 ​​ran most major games at 720p for the entire generation while PS3 was restricted to lower resolutions in those same games, however resolution was not important, M $ said that the important thing was who had the best online network; came PS4, we know that he quickly dominated and spiked that the important thing was 1080p, as the xbox was weaker it would not be able to keep up with this rule imposed by marketing and that the people embraced, with SEGA Saturn and N64 it is the same thing, what they offered as a differential was restricted to the background, faster loadings didn't matter, better 2D didn't matter, higher resolution didn't matter, what mattered was better frame rate, effects and textures, you show Perfect Dark to a person, instead say ''wow amazing graphics'' , he will say '' low frame rate ugh''.
    To be fair MS did hype up the 720P and mandate it, untill it allowed certin games to break that rule . You're so spot on about the N64 mind. For all the talk of the Saturn polygon speed, there you had a system running games like Pilotwings at 20 fps and with a screen res below most Saturn games, even Panzer Dragoon run at higher frame rate and better screen res. Of course with a cheat you could make it run at 60 fps in places, which I bet even the PS might find though going

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    Quote Originally Posted by saturndual32 View Post
    Isnt Wipeout 2097 for the Saturn running on the Manx TT engine from Tantalus?
    It's running on the 'Duck engine version 3' . Tantalus did a good job more so as we call all fairly assume the team never had the same level of resources and budget given to the Liverpool PS team. Also, I doubt most could have done much better, given the game made little scope for use of the VDP2 to handle Saturn style effects. That said their House of the Dead Saturn port could have made some nice of use of the VDP2 to handle the flat floor and even some of the hit effects, but from what I read of the making of the game they were given little more than 4 months to get the game out before Easter, when a standard port of that type, takes 6 to 8 months.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Except that special effects just mean that the game looks better, and better graphics were *always* important, regardless how well a console did.
    Agreed, which is why SNES owners made such a big deal of Mode 7 and the colour . And why the Xbox dumps on the PS2. But then, it's all about the games , not the better gfx or sound
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 02-01-2020 at 08:25 AM.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Agreed, which is why SNES owners made such a big deal of Mode 7 and the colour . And why the Xbox dumps on the PS2. But then, it's all about the games , not the better gfx or sound
    True, but I had my PS2 running through component cables to 57" HD TV at the time and it was painful! I always opted for GC versions if I could (I didn't have an xbox at the time, but a friend did and I'd borrow it from time to time.. it definitely looked incredible on HD at the time). Mode 7 was soo gimmicky, but color was always the real deal haha. It's something not easily ignored, but yeah software still is the bigger factor (Atari Jaguar games were just horrible haha despite all the extra color. Same for 3DO.. the games just weren't fun).

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Except that special effects just mean that the game looks better, and better graphics were *always* important, regardless how well a console did.
    it is not necessarily true; see Quantum Break had a good graphic and great effects but it was deconstructed by people because it didn't run natively in 1080p, in this situation it was more important to be in 1080p than to have effects. Who determines what is good for the public is the Marketing and the popularity of the system.

    it's not difficult to imagine if Saturn were the most popular system, perhaps a higher resolution of a Virtua Fighter was considered better than the good graphics of Soul Edge . the N64 has good graphics for the time but it doesnít matter if the game has good effects, people just say itís blurry and therefore they prefer simpler games as long as theyíre sharp. this is how things work in this industry.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    when I said that VDP1 was 40% weaker than the PS1 GPU it was just a deduction from me based on the trade offs I see in the ports. But researching I found this guy http://www.davidgamizjimenez.com/inp...-the-limit-ii/ who observed through a calculation that the VDP1 is 37% weaker than the GPU of the PS1, however the situation changes when VDP2 + VDP1 are widely used this reverses giving SEGA Saturn a 34% advantage over the PS1, imagining a scenario where saturn was well explored with better development kits in the worst case, their games would be the same as the PS1, maybe lost in textures. but in an extreme situation where everything works perfectly, where the saturn had sold 40M units the Saturn would have more beautiful games to the point of rivaling the best games on the N64.
    That reference is brilliant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    Mode 7 was soo gimmicky, but color was always the real deal haha. It's something not easily ignored, but yeah software still is the bigger factor (Atari Jaguar games were just horrible haha despite all the extra color. Same for 3DO.. the games just weren't fun).
    I would say a lot of graphical effects at the time were a little gimmicky, but they they help make the game look a lot better, like with PS lens flare effects or nice multi-layer scrolling in MD games. In the UK mag's like GVG, EDGE would always look to praise the Snes GFX more.
    Don't agree with you on 3DO games sorry, there were plenty of good games on it and even 2D games looked noticeably better than their 16-bit counterparts like with Super Street Fighter and Samurai Showdown.

    When SEGA pulled out of the hardware, I was sort of at a loss of if to go with Nintendo or MS (My brother already had a PS2) and after seeing a 10% JSRF at E3 2001 my choice was made for.
    I really can't think of any major 3rd party game that looked worse on the Xbox to the PS2, only a port of MGS 2. Most times, PS2 games had rough textures, low res graphics half the time DC games looked better. Xbox stuff on the other hand just looked and sounded incredible from day one.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
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    Presented for your pleasure

  10. #70
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    Graphics by definition are a gimmick by themselves in any era.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?



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  11. #71
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    Load times and resolution

  12. #72
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    - Saturn could abuse a hardware snafu to shade textures in a way that every pixels colour was definable, thereby being theoretically capable of more advanced shading effects. However it had many limitations and only a single tech demo did it.
    What tech demo is this?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    What tech demo is this?
    One of the demos from the 1996 DTS discs, I think it was made by one of the STI people who worked on Sonic X-treme and then got folded into doing Saturn devkits. Chris Senn maybe. It's basically a single spinning white cube with texture indents on the inside, which get shaded in a peculiar way that it looks like they are casting a shadow on themselves. Primitive bump mapping. Maybe it would've looked better if put on a full character model, but I think it would be too limited due to how much pre-baking the palettes would need.

    I think Wipeout 2097 used the same palette trick for the metallic shining on the trophies.

  14. #74
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    I'm not tech minded at all but of the games I own and have played for the Saturn the one title that actually has me thinking to myself "I don't think this could have been done on the PS1, or if it could it wouldn't look anywhere near as good." is Shining Force III. I found the 3D rendered world environments and effects like waterfalls simply jaw dropping when I first played it a couple of years ago. Now I know Shining Force III was a very late Saturn game, and I also know how good 3D effects on the PS1 looked (I played a LOT of PS1 games back in the day), but I simply don't remember anything that jumped out at me in the same way. Could somebody confirm or deny for me that Shining Force III is genuinely as impressive visually as I believe it to be? Also I would like to know if that game pushed the Saturn to it's limits. It is a simply beautiful looking game I think.

  15. #75
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    shining force scenario 3 is more beautiful than the others and somehow it uses the power of saturn effects. but at the level of polygonal counting the numbers are as low as 600 polygons per frame 30fps.

    the most advanced ones as a whole are Sonic R which has the highest polygonal count combined with effects, Dead or Alive is the most advanced fighting game, ps1 version didnít try to replicate the Model 2 version like SS did, on the other hand itís based on a simpler arcade board more based on ps1 hardware, use other engine, at the end of the day is more beautiful to someone, but less impressive
    technically. in fact many saturn games are not possible on ps1 without proper downgrade.

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