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Thread: What the Saturn can exactly do that the Playstation cannot?

  1. #31
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Fighting Force is a nice example. That game was build around the Saturn's VDP2 and the PS does a half decent job of handling it . Grandia isn't too bad either, but comes up way short in parts , same goes for Souky VDP2 backgrounds on stage 2 and 3.

    Thunder Force V Stage 1 on he PS does a decent job, it's on stage 3 where is goes to hell and on stage 4 , the swirling transparent VDP 2 background is completely gone , very like with Skeleton Warriors on the PS.
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    Well the PSX 007 game has very impressive VDP 2 like effects in the first stage sky.


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    Quote Originally Posted by EPSYLON EAGLE View Post
    Well the PSX 007 game has very impressive VDP 2 like effects in the first stage sky.

    I've tended to use Ghost in the Shell. That has a nice VDP2 style sky effect and a flat floor too, but it runs a choppy (That's a big issue with so many PS games on YouTube most of through an emulator, don't get a real picture) and you just know the Saturn could handle the floor and sky so much better

    It can work both ways sometimes; I was very impressed with Layer Section 2 on the Saturn. Given it was a full polygons title developed from the ground up on the PS, one would expect the worse, but the team made some great use of the VDP2, to help with the workload and handled a very decent port, with some lovely polygon handling for a Saturn game. A shame the mesh transparencies, stick out like a soar thumb mind . Tiburon made some nice use of the VDP2 to handle the floors and weather effects to help with the Madden 97/98 ports and I even liked how they used the VDP2 for the HUD in Soviet Strike and you could cycle thought the VDP2 transparences. Quality team, I so wanted to buy them out back inthe day LOL.
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    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohko16 View Post
    Because it's a bit unclear to me...


    The Saturn was released around the same time as the PS1 but was retailed at a higher price.
    Saturn / 1994-11-22 / 44,800 in Japan and $399 in US.
    PS1 / 1994-12-03 / 39,800 in Japan and $299 in US.

    Furthermore, the Saturn also needed things like RAM carts to properly run some games which further increase its price.

    So given this, you would expect the Saturn to perform better or something but the problem is that it's not really the case.

    It's said to be a 2D powerhouse but I've seen some impressive 2D games on PS1 as well, like Symphony of the Night, Panzer Bandit or Hercules.

    3D games on the other hand seem to perform better on PS1, with impressive titles such as Tekken 3, Ridge Racer Type 4 or Quake 2.


    There are a few surprising things about all of this like the fact that the PS1 is said to be designed solely around 3D yet it can do some superb 2D games.

    Also the fact that the Saturn has a complex sound hardware yet it can't even compress data???

    And the PS1 seem to have full transparency support whereas the Saturn is kinda compromised in that regard.


    So, was the Saturn poorly engineered and too expensive for what it is? Or does it have some actual advantages over the PS1 and if so, which ones exactly?


    I'm sure there are already a few threads related to this but I thought that a whole new one with all the knowledge that people gathered so far would make things clearer. So please try to be the most concise possible and thanks in advance for any relevant informations regarding this subject!
    I don't think you're asking what the Saturn can do that's special, but why the Saturn performed the way it did.

    Simply put, the Saturn is an older design than the PSX. The PSX's streamlined development is what won the war. Couple that with a rapidly advancing industry, and the Saturn couldn't really compete on any level against a well-engineered and put together graphics computer.

    That's easier said than done though, Nintendo had 2 extra years for development and still messed it up (by their own admission).

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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    I don't think you're asking what the Saturn can do that's special, but why the Saturn performed the way it did.
    One piece of that which is rarely talked about is the choice of dev kits. There were three different ones: the original official SDK from Sega, the third-party Psy-Q system from Psygnosis, and the Cross Products SNASM2 kit which was originally a third-party option but became the official SDK when Sega bought out the company. The Psy-Q was cheaper and was designed to facilitate multi-platform development with the PS1 Psy-Q dev kit. I imagine this made ports faster to develop but its approach favored the PS1 and the peculiarities of the Saturn hardware were less well-supported. I remember Next Gen magazine had an article about Psy-Q vs. SNASM2 but it was more about the choice that developers faced than the fine details of technical differences between the two. For some reason Psygnosis and Cross Products took out competing magazine ads.




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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Psygnosis ports still turned out alright for shovelware.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    The only thing accurate here is that VDP1 is weaker than the PS1's GTE.
    it is not accurate it is true but observing the multiplatforms between both it is possible to establish an equivalence, with few trade offs and a reduction of fps Saturn could run almost all PS1 games did, using only VDP1 and 1 SH2.

    They were very close consoles but given the specs it is possible to see that if devs wanted they could make Saturn a game impossible to run on Playstation, such a game never existed, the closest to this feat would be 2D games, there is no doubt about it.




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    when I said that VDP1 was 40% weaker than the PS1 GPU it was just a deduction from me based on the trade offs I see in the ports.

    But researching I found this guy http://www.davidgamizjimenez.com/inp...-the-limit-ii/ who observed through a calculation that the VDP1 is 37% weaker than the GPU of the PS1, however the situation changes when VDP2 + VDP1 are widely used this reverses giving SEGA Saturn a 34% advantage over the PS1, imagining a scenario where saturn was well explored with better development kits in the worst case, their games would be the same as the PS1, maybe lost in textures. but in an extreme situation where everything works perfectly, where the saturn had sold 40M units the Saturn would have more beautiful games to the point of rivaling the best games on the N64.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    when I said that VDP1 was 40% weaker than the PS1 GPU it was just a deduction from me based on the trade offs I see in the ports.

    But researching I found this guy http://www.davidgamizjimenez.com/inp...-the-limit-ii/ who observed through a calculation that the VDP1 is 37% weaker than the GPU of the PS1, however the situation changes when VDP2 + VDP1 are widely used this reverses giving SEGA Saturn a 34% advantage over the PS1, imagining a scenario where saturn was well explored with better development kits in the worst case, their games would be the same as the PS1, maybe lost in textures. but in an extreme situation where everything works perfectly, where the saturn had sold 40M units the Saturn would have more beautiful games to the point of rivaling the best games on the N64.
    The PSX GPU is conservatively something like 4x faster than the VDP1 (depending on rendering mode it can be even more, and that's still without counting transparencies), and the VDP2 doesn't really reverse the situation except by providing a lot more memory. Getting the most out of the VDP2 is extremely difficult and requires the game to be designed around its features (like Sonic R or the Panzer Dragoons).
    Between the VDP1 and the PSX GPU, the difference isn't just "10fps" or so, the PSX also has much higher colour counts, triangle support, UV mapping support, and both shading and transparency always works as intended, instead of just once when the planets align like on the Saturn. It can also use all features and colours in high resolutions too, the Saturn is limited to 256 colours if it goes high-res (meaning no shading and no transparency).

    If the Saturn had sold 40 million units, it would've cost Sega 4 billion dollars, since according to Hideki Sato they lost $100 on every unit sold - they had to cut back on production to lessen the losses.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    We'll I don't think Mass Destruction or Street Racer lead on the Saturn and the Saturn versions, thanks to relatively simply use of the VDP2 looked better had more effects, run in a high scree Res and for Mass Destruction, better FPS too.

    I remember many mags saying Wipeout 2097bon the PS looked one of the best games ever made and didnt see a 4X difference in the Saturn verison to be honest . Sony made a underpowered GPU for the PS3 so many 360 ports to the PS3 run in lower screen Res and had issues with the Frame rate.

    Microsoft too made the One had a underpowered GPU and lesser memory system and where ports on its system suffer. Also with regards to sales , wasn't SONY losing quite a lot on each PS sold , same for the PS2.

    Maybe if the Saturn sold over 40 million units , software sales and 3rs party royalties would have made the difference, like for the 360, PS 1 and PS2.
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    HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG Raging in the Streets Moirai's Avatar
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    i doubt the playstation could pull off Radiant Silvergun... maybe a somewhat butchered version of it... but that being said the number of Saturn games that couldnt be done on playstation is probably pretty low...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moirai View Post
    i doubt the playstation could pull off Radiant Silvergun... maybe a somewhat butchered version of it... but that being said the number of Saturn games that couldnt be done on playstation is probably pretty low...
    When you have the GBA handling Crazy Taxi or Tekken 3 LOL, one can say the PS could have handled RSG , but with issues like with any Saturn game that made half decent use of the VDP2.
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  13. #43
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    Crazy Taxi on GBA is not port. It's built from the ground up for GBA. Tekken Advance is not Tekken 3. It's a noncanonical sequel. Tekken Advance also had rendered backdrops and the characters were digitized sprites.

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    PSX didn't have the memory to handle Radiant Silvergun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    We'll I don't think Mass Destruction or Street Racer lead on the Saturn and the Saturn versions, thanks to relatively simply use of the VDP2 looked better had more effects, run in a high scree Res and for Mass Destruction, better FPS too.

    I remember many mags saying Wipeout 2097bon the PS looked one of the best games ever made and didnt see a 4X difference in the Saturn verison to be honest . Sony made a underpowered GPU for the PS3 so many 360 ports to the PS3 run in lower screen Res and had issues with the Frame rate.

    Microsoft too made the One had a underpowered GPU and lesser memory system and where ports on its system suffer. Also with regards to sales , wasn't SONY losing quite a lot on each PS sold , same for the PS2.

    Maybe if the Saturn sold over 40 million units , software sales and 3rs party royalties would have made the difference, like for the 360, PS 1 and PS2.
    The 4x difference is for polygon fillrate. Most multiplatform games on the PSX would run at a smoother framerate, with better textures, with plenty of transparency effects, and sometimes better lightning too, compared to the Saturn. There are very few exceptions to this, most notable Lobotomys games, but even they said that when they ported their Saturn Quake to Playstation, it ran at an almost constant 60fps and was held back by the T&L code, not the GPU (it runs at 15-20 fps on Saturn).

    Sony didn't make the PS3 GPU, they didn't have time because the Cell cpu had issues and Microsoft was rushing the 360 ahead (which incidentally had a non-bullshit version of the Cell). So they bolted on a random Geforce GPU, which was responsible for nearly every architectural problem the PS3.

    And Sony could afford to sell the console at a loss since they had a gigantic worldwide empire of electronics, movies, and music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Crazy Taxi on GBA is not port. It's built from the ground up for GBA. Tekken Advance is not Tekken 3. It's a noncanonical sequel. Tekken Advance also had rendered backdrops and the characters were digitized sprites.
    Yeah, at that rate you might as well point out Virtua Fighter 2 running on the Megadrive. Or even Duke Nukem 3d.

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