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Thread: What the Saturn can exactly do that the Playstation cannot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    PSX didn't have the memory to handle Radiant Silvergun.



    The 4x difference is for polygon fillrate. Most multiplatform games on the PSX would run at a smoother framerate, with better textures, with plenty of transparency effects, and sometimes better lightning too, compared to the Saturn. There are very few exceptions to this, most notable Lobotomys games, but even they said that when they ported their Saturn Quake to Playstation, it ran at an almost constant 60fps and was held back by the T&L code, not the GPU (it runs at 15-20 fps on Saturn).

    Sony didn't make the PS3 GPU, they didn't have time because the Cell cpu had issues and Microsoft was rushing the 360 ahead (which incidentally had a non-bullshit version of the Cell). So they bolted on a random Geforce GPU, which was responsible for nearly every architectural problem the PS3.

    And Sony could afford to sell the console at a loss since they had a gigantic worldwide empire of electronics, movies, and music.
    Yeah, Sony planned to use 2 CELLs instead of a GPU. Axed that idea delayed the console a year and had to retool the memory. I believe originally it used 512MB of unified ram but before launch split it. Always felt PS3 in terms of hardware difficulty was very similar to Saturn. The difference is as you pointed out. Sony could afford it. SEGA could not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Crazy Taxi on GBA is not port. It's built from the ground up for GBA. Tekken Advance is not Tekken 3. It's a noncanonical sequel. Tekken Advance also had rendered backdrops and the characters were digitized sprites.
    I guess the 'LOL' went WOOSH for you?. But if one was to be serious, when you have Chase HQ appearing on a Zx Spectrum, the very latest Model 2B games on a Saturn or even the likes of Doom Enteral coming out on a Switch.
    RSG would have been very possible on the PS, but with issues over the VDP2 backgrounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    The 4x difference is for polygon fillrate. Most multiplatform games on the PSX would run at a smoother framerate, with better textures, with plenty of, and sometimes better lightning too, compared to the Saturn..
    Was there a 4X times difference in Wipeout 2097 on the Saturn?. Transparency effects are a far point, only when the VDP2 comes in to play Saturn games that made basic use of the VDP2 some times have transparency effects not seen in the PS version:
    The VDP2 swirling transparent background in Thunder Force V stage 4, more transparent clouds in Souky stage 3, the transparent mist in Skelton Warriors, also With the VDP2 one can add in effects too, that sometimes were emitted from the PS version: The swirling heat Haze effect was seen in Mega Man X4, the reflections seen in Mass Destruction, the scrolling Lava in Croc.

    Sony didn't make the PS3 GPU, they didn't have time because the Cell cpu had issues and Microsoft was rushing the 360 ahead
    I thought it was only SEGA that looked to rush consoles out. I guess Microsoft can blame SONY and the need to rush out the One with an underpowered GPU and poor memory system too

    I also never really had SEGA down has a Hardware CPU and GPU developer, most of SEGA's tech seems to be re-engineered off the shelf parts for the main. That's to overlook SONY, Microsoft selling the 360, PS2, PS and PS3 and huge loses per system sold.
    It's ok for SONY, just not SEGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    The PSX GPU is conservatively something like 4x faster than the VDP1 (depending on rendering mode it can be even more, and that's still without counting transparencies), and the VDP2 doesn't really reverse the situation except by providing a lot more memory. Getting the most out of the VDP2 is extremely difficult and requires the game to be designed around its features (like Sonic R or the Panzer Dragoons).
    there is no game that supports your claim, but I do not deny that the PS1 can draw up to 4x more triangles than Saturn, but Saturn works with Quads, so they are apples and oranges.


    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Between the VDP1 and the PSX GPU, the difference isn't just "10fps" or so, the PSX also has much higher colour counts, triangle support, UV mapping support, and both shading and transparency always works as intended, instead of just once when the planets align like on the Saturn. It can also use all features and colours in high resolutions too, the Saturn is limited to 256 colours if it goes high-res (meaning no shading and no transparency).

    in fact it is 15fps (that means 40%) but in real games the average was 10fps (30%) because the devs made trade offs. to keep the game within the limits of smoothness.

    let's see what the main downgrade between ports is:

    Tomb raider: ps1 mostly at 30fps, Sega Saturn can reach 30fps but it is mostly 20fps (measured by DF Retro) taking this difference out of frame rate, and some water effects are the same game, the match has been successfully reached.

    In Croc both have 30fps (and that can never happen cause PS! gpu is more powerfull than vdp1) so the devs reduced the draw distance, ready the equivalence was done successfully.
    Quake 1: there is no PS1 version but a dev said he put the saturn code on PS1 and reached up to 60fps without the collision detection physics, this shows that the PS1 cpu is not as strong, I believe that when putting the physics , the game must have dropped to 40fps. But there is a version for N64 and the main difference is that on N64 the fps are more solid and the screen is full, while saturn needs to use that inventory to be able to reduce rendering area. thus equivalence with N64 is achieved.

    Any subsequent game would follow one of these 3 forms of equivalence.


    Now let's see when saturn is the owner of Port;

    DOA: uses a different engine on PS1 and had its stages redrawn, so PS1 would not be able to replicate the game as it did on Saturn.

    Radiant Silvergun: started to port to pS1 and then gave up, there is a vertical shooter for ps1 and saturn where the PS1 version runs well at 60fps but the slowdowns reach 10fps, we can deduce that the machine would not support an RSG port.

    So for ps1 to receive a native game from saturn basically the game needs to be reimagined for the system. But in fact the colors and textures of the PS1 are better in most cases and that would remain.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 01-29-2020 at 09:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post


    Tomb raider: ps1 mostly at 30fps, Sega Saturn can reach 30fps but it is mostly 20fps (measured by DF Retro) taking this difference out of frame rate, and some water effects are the same game, the match has been successfully reached.
    .
    Tomb Raider isn't a fair example either. Looking over how the PS had a few more months work, thanks to SEGA Europe the Saturn version was pushed 6 weeks forward from the team's original completion/Gold date. And we all know, it's in the last few weeks of a games development that a serious push is made to optimise the game code with the move from debug hardware to retail hardware

    Radiant Silvergun: started to port to pS1 and then gave up, there is a vertical shooter for ps1 and saturn where the PS1 version runs well at 60fps but the slowdowns reach 10fps, we can deduce that the machine would not support an RSG port
    We can, but there's no doubt the PS version would suffer from those VDP 2 backgrounds. For a laugh play the PS version of Darius Gaiden and see it suffer when trying to handle effects the VDP2 pulled off in its sleep
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    Some sections of Tomb Raider run much smoother on Saturn. Bitd I compared both and the spots that had the furthest/widest view chugged pretty bad on Playstation.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Tomb Raider isn't a fair example either. Looking over how the PS had a few more months work, thanks to SEGA Europe the Saturn version was pushed 6 weeks forward from the team's original completion/Gold date. And we all know, it's in the last few weeks of a games development that a serious push is made to optimise the game code with the move from debug hardware to retail hardware

    I chose Tomb Raider as an example because it is a 3D game with a free camera, something that after the N64 arrived, became a requirement for the market. it also represents a real situation where teams have deadlines and budgets. We know that multiplat games aren't that best exploit the hardware, and saturn suffered doubly from this, as most ports were made by secondary teams and with low budgets, which increases the gap between machines.

    But when we take the best efforts from Sega Saturn we see a powerful machine Panzer Dragoon Zwei came before Tomb Raider and is a more elaborate graphic.

    that topic is about what Saturn could do that the Playstation doesn't. and I feel like 2D action games. In terms of 3D, both could play the same games, ps1 advantage multiplat with saturn taking advantage in its exclusive. such a situation would benefit (as it benefited) the playstation, SEGA would need to partner with third parties to make multiplat based on Saturn hardware, otherwise it would always be the ugly duck.

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    4x fillrate does not mean 4x triangles. It means it has bandwidth to draw 4x as many pixels. But the main cpu holds up the polygon count, so neither console is significantly ahead there.
    However the abundance of drawing speed means that it is possible to draw a ton of transparent polygons without it slowing down the game (despite them taking 2-3x more time to draw). You can also do way more special effects. Like a full screen motion blur. Or drawing multiple polygons at the same place for lightning or reflections (draw a base polygon, then on top of that draw another, semi-transparent one, either with a reflection pattern or with just gouraud shading) - since the extra polygon is at the same place, you aren't held back by T&L math, you just have to crunch the pixels, which the PSX GPU can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I chose Tomb Raider as an example because it is a 3D game with a free camera, something that after the N64 arrived, became a requirement for the market. it also represents a real situation where teams have deadlines and budgets. .
    It wasn't just that, it was the fact that the team had to rush the game out and lose 6 weeks of coding (with any game the optimising comes right at the end)
    If you look at CORE other early 3D Saturn and PS games like Blam Machine Head and Thunder Hawk 2 the Frame rate different isn't as high. It is quite remarkable what the Tomb Raider team did on both the PS and Saturn mind, given the size of the team and their budget; While STI with more staff and far more resources, were screwing up Sonic X.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    4x fillrate does not mean 4x triangles. It means it has bandwidth to draw 4x as many pixels. But the main cpu holds up the polygon count, so neither console is significantly ahead there.
    However the abundance of drawing speed means that it is possible to draw a ton of transparent polygons without it slowing down the game (despite them taking 2-3x more time to draw). You can also do way more special effects. Like a full screen motion blur. Or drawing multiple polygons at the same place for lightning or reflections (draw a base polygon, then on top of that draw another, semi-transparent one, either with a reflection pattern or with just gouraud shading) - since the extra polygon is at the same place, you aren't held back by T&L math, you just have to crunch the pixels, which the PSX GPU can do.
    True, but does Wipeout 2097 on the Saturn run and look so much worse than the PS version? And Wipopot 2097 is one of those games where the VDP2 can't be used that much. And when we have Saturn games that use the VDP2, we see its the PS version that loses the special effects like transparency and fake reflections with Thunder Force V, Street Racer, Souky Ect. Saying SONY can afford to lose more is such a cop-out (even if factually true). Think like that there was no way SEGA could match SONY on price or for specs. So SEGA did so well to get the Saturn's spec so close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    It wasn't just that, it was the fact that the team had to rush the game out and lose 6 weeks of coding (with any game the optimising comes right at the end)
    If you look at CORE other early 3D Saturn and PS games like Blam Machine Head and Thunder Hawk 2 the Frame rate different isn't as high.
    the most rational explanation is that these two games are below the playstation's capabilities, there is a hardware difference between ps1 and saturn, itī's impossible for them to run the same games insame quality. saturn has two alternatives; reduce the fps or reduce the graphics
    the third alternative is for Saturn to be the base for the port, so in this situation the PS1 would have the worst version, for example Sonic R the PS1 would have difficulties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Saying SONY can afford to lose more is such a cop-out (even if factually true). Think like that there was no way SEGA could match SONY on price or for specs. So SEGA did so well to get the Saturn's spec so close.

    the Sega saturn responds very well to the Playstation in hardware, a Sony fanboy will surely say that not that the Saturn is rubbish and stuff.

    when I talk about Saturn I always see it from the historical side, a modern science is even the so-called counterfactual history, which tries to reimagine the world and perception if certain historical events had happened differently, or had not happened at all.

    for instance if saturn hadnít boycotted by the logists (the severity of this is so disastrous that it undermined Sega Saturnís chances of winning) how are people going to buy Saturn if they donít have it in the store? and everyone just talking about ps1, since Sony spent higher amounts on marketing than SEGA. a scenario is created with only one viable platform. There are those who say that the first 8 months of a platform is crucial to determine your destiny.

    So as @Zyrobs said, Ps1 could have more effects due to the 4x higher fill rate, but the question is: who determined what effects are important? such a feature only became important because the playstation became important, the console got a base if I'm not mistaken 15M worldwide before the N64 arrived. who sells more consoles dictates to the rules.

    But if the opposite occurs, today we would be placing the effects of VDP2 as being important, the ability to merge 2d with 3d and ps1 in turn would be restricted to a lot of mid-range games, I find it very interesting to look at things for this angle.

    all this that I wrote is part of a theory that I developed based on the gaming market, which I call '' distortion '', is an event or game or situation that somehow becomes a success, the whole industry starts to follow. For example: if one of those 1995 Saturn 2D games had fallen into the public eye and sold 2M (inexplicably like this PUBG), that would change the entire generation dynamic in favor of Saturn. Sony has the most advantage over the generations because it understood it somehow. how perception is created, its competitors do not seem to know such a science.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 01-30-2020 at 10:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the most rational explanation is that these two games are below the playstation's capabilities, there is a hardware difference between ps1 and saturn, itī's impossible for them to run the same games insame quality. saturn has two alternatives; reduce the fps or reduce the graphics.
    Even with 6 weeks more work and high-end optimisation, the PS version was going to look and move better. I just feel and reading interviews from the original members, they were not happy with the push to get it out and the Saturn version would have been far more stable and run more at 25 fps IMO.

    the Sega saturn responds very well to the Playstation in hardware
    I wouldn't go that far, I wouldn't like to see what MGS or Vagrant Story would have looked on the Saturn. But in the just the same way PS 2D graphic isn't that bad, even if they have to go through the PS 3D engine, they still look good and more than good enought.
    Same for the Saturn 3D. They are not that bad, even if they had to go through the Saturn's 3D engine, they're more than good enough.

    It's like any system, care and work is needed when handling a port. The Saturn just never got enough market share in the west for more developers to take the time and effort needed. I feel the same for the Vita or the 2D of the Jaguar; systems that we never really saw pushed to the limits bar the odd title.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    the question is: who determined what effects are important? such a feature only became important because the playstation became important, the console got a base if I'm not mistaken 15M worldwide before the N64 arrived. who sells more consoles dictates to the rules.
    That's bullshit, even back on the Saturn everyone was spazzing out over how good the lightning was in Exhumed and how better Saturn Quake looked due to the dynamic lightning on the port. Or in Japan, D-Xhird was a big deal because it had real time lightning effects.
    But we can go back further, for example the big improvement that made Doom more atmospheric than ever was its ability to include per-sector illumination.

    Even today the reason games run at 30fps or at 892p or some other oddball resolution is because the authors go max on the effects, sacrificing the resolution and framerate, because effects can make a game look better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    That's bullshit, even back on the Saturn everyone was spazzing out over how good the lightning was in Exhumed and how better Saturn Quake looked due to the dynamic lightning on the port. Or in Japan, D-Xhird was a big deal because it had real time lightning effects.
    Why is it anything that the Saturn does pretty well? you take issue with?. Dynamic lightning can add so much to the game or take away from it (hello Aliens Marine) I gather itwas the slave SH-2 handling/calculating the effect for Exhmed/Quake/Duke effects too)
    I remember when PS mags were making out that DDD project (D-Xhird ) was a PS game, because of its GFX.


    You talk of DOOM such a shame Saturn owners were robbed of the 60 fps Saturn Doom from Jim, via id
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 01-30-2020 at 12:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    That's bullshit, even back on the Saturn everyone was spazzing out over how good the lightning was in Exhumed and how better Saturn Quake looked due to the dynamic lightning on the port. Or in Japan, D-Xhird was a big deal because it had real time lightning effects.
    But we can go back further, for example the big improvement that made Doom more atmospheric than ever was its ability to include per-sector illumination.

    Even today the reason games run at 30fps or at 892p or some other oddball resolution is because the authors go max on the effects, sacrificing the resolution and framerate, because effects can make a game look better.
    yes, but we are not saying the same thing, oranges and apples, you are saying how important the effects are and I am saying that the platform that dominates in sales decides what is most important. resolution for example 360 ​​ran most major games at 720p for the entire generation while PS3 was restricted to lower resolutions in those same games, however resolution was not important, M $ said that the important thing was who had the best online network; came PS4, we know that he quickly dominated and spiked that the important thing was 1080p, as the xbox was weaker it would not be able to keep up with this rule imposed by marketing and that the people embraced, with SEGA Saturn and N64 it is the same thing, what they offered as a differential was restricted to the background, faster loadings didn't matter, better 2D didn't matter, higher resolution didn't matter, what mattered was better frame rate, effects and textures, you show Perfect Dark to a person, instead say ''wow amazing graphics'' , he will say '' low frame rate ugh''.

    this is what I am saying the console taht governs sales dictates which points are important to be valued and which are not, in general, what favors me is good what harms me is bad, this is how companies act, I myself gave preference to perfect conversions, but most people don't care about it, so much so that when Bernie Stolar took over as ceo he had several locations canceled because in his mind a perfect port is not worth the cost, and he was partly right, having to buy the game and another cartridge of RAM was not simple on a commercial level.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 01-30-2020 at 07:21 PM.

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