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Thread: Doom on the Saturn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    John didn't allow texture warping in this particular console port.
    He didn't allow it in any port that he had input into. Development of the Playstation version's engine was restarted for this very reason.

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    He didn't allow it in any port that he had input into. Development of the Playstation version's engine was restarted for this very reason.
    It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.
    For Quake it was probably the choice of allow it and take the money or lose out. Perspective correction on that hardware and a more advanced engine was never really going to be a possibility. Another factor might have been Todd Hollenshead joining as CEO of id in '96. AFAIK he wasn't credited for the Saturn version of Doom, but he was in later games.

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    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.
    The difference is that Quake had an order of magnitude more complex 3D geometry than Doom. Any warping was hidden by the numerous polygons, that were subdivided into even more quads to combat this very issue by Lobotomy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    The difference is that Quake had an order of magnitude more complex 3D geometry than Doom. Any warping was hidden by the numerous polygons, that were subdivided into even more quads to combat this very issue by Lobotomy.
    Saturn Exhumed or Alien Trilogy never has as much warping as the PS versions (You see way more in Exhumed). In fact, I saw far more polygon warping in Metal Head on the 32X than in any Saturn FPS TBH. It just seemed John made too much of an issue over a problem that wasn't so apprant in Saturn FPS games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    The difference is that Quake had an order of magnitude more complex 3D geometry than Doom. Any warping was hidden by the numerous polygons, that were subdivided into even more quads to combat this very issue by Lobotomy.
    Again, people are speculating what it might have looked like. If that 60fps engine was rebalanced to use more quads and run at 30fps it might have looked much better. We'll never know what we're really talking about though unless it ond day gets leaked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Again, people are speculating what it might have looked like. If that 60fps engine was rebalanced to use more quads and run at 30fps it might have looked much better. We'll never know what we're really talking about though unless it ond day gets leaked.
    Who knows about the 60 fps, maybe it was looking at the SKY. Really though, if you look at Exhumed or even Alien. though games run great and used the mixture of polygons and sprites and had little warping issues. That looked the way Doom should have gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    It was allowed in Quake for Saturn and Quake II for Playstation. I guess he was no longer meddling in ports by then.
    It's worth noting that both of those games were amongst the most impressive 3d titles on each system.

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    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Saturn Exhumed or Alien Trilogy never has as much warping as the PS versions (You see way more in Exhumed). In fact, I saw far more polygon warping in Metal Head on the 32X than in any Saturn FPS TBH. It just seemed John made too much of an issue over a problem that wasn't so apprant in Saturn FPS games.
    Exhumed and anything on 32X wasn't drawing anything in hardware, so the warping or lack thereof was completely dependent on the engine the developers coded. Doom 32X didn't have any warping.

    Trekkies posted an example of what the Doom engine would look like without perspective corrected polygons a few pages back and it looked awful.

    Given the circumstances, John was right!

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    Exhumed does do hardware drawing and has its share of distortions, from what I remember.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Trekkies posted an example of what the Doom engine would look like without perspective corrected polygons a few pages back and it looked awful.

    Given the circumstances, John was right!
    Lol, I just watched that clip and it doesn't look bad at all for a 32-bit 3D game and isn't as jittery or distorted as most Playstation games.

    Check out this awful looking game which is even worse. If most scenes are too dark, take a look at 2:05:55 and 2:27:55


    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Exhumed does do hardware drawing and has its share of distortions, from what I remember.
    Whoops, you’re right, I confused Exhumed with Hexen. Of course Powerslave used hardware.

    Check out this awful looking game which is even worse.
    That is worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Lol, I just watched that clip and it doesn't look bad at all for a 32-bit 3D game and isn't as jittery or distorted as most Playstation games.

    Check out this awful looking game which is even worse. If most scenes are too dark, take a look at 2:05:55 and 2:27:55


    Go look at it again when he actually turns the Polygon rendering on at the 6:30 mark:



    The door goes nuts when he gets close to it. If Carmack was given something that looked like that then I wouldn't blame him for axing it. You guys need to stop demonizing Carmack over this. He probably didn't care with Quake because Quake is doing heavy subdividing to keep the texture warping down to a minimum, and considering the Hardware Carmack and others probably figured that's as good as they can get.

    Now put yourself in Carmacks shoes for Doom on the Saturn. You've made this great FPS engine that runs decently on a 33MHz 486. Not only that you've successfully ported it to the PS1, the Jaguar, and even the 32X that uses the same dual SH-2 CPU set up as the Saturn. All of which still used software renderer to do the bulk of the work and still ran at good playable speeds. Now you get this demo of Saturn Doom that's running at high speed, but it's using polygons and has texture warping all over the place. Considering that you know the software renderer can run on a dual SH-2 set up that's clocked 5MHz slower than the one in the Saturn what are you going to do? You're going to tell the guy to go back and use the software render because you know it can can run at a playable speed on the Saturn's CPUs and that it will look better as it will have no texture warping.

    The software renderer isn't the problem with Saturn Doom. The Saturn should be able to handle that no problem considering the 32X handles it just fine. The issue is that instead of drawing the lines in a way that's optimal for the Saturn, it instead does it in a very suboptimal way. They're drawn as VDP1 single pixel high sprites with a ton of user clipping commands. That slows things down to a crawl and VDP1 becomes the bottleneck, not the CPUs:


  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Exhumed and anything on 32X wasn't drawing anything in hardware, so the warping or lack thereof was completely dependent on the engine the developers coded. Doom 32X didn't have any warping.
    Exhumed was making use of the VDP1 and there is quite a bit of warping in the PS1 version. One can see slight polygon folding in Alien Trilogy on the Saturn ,but it's tiny and nothing like as bad as the PS version. Tbh I saw more polygon folding on the pitch in Fifa 96 on the Saturn, than in any FPS on the Saturn.

    I would have rather saw Rage allowed to go the route of Exhumed on the Saturn myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Exhumed was making use of the VDP1 and there is quite a bit of warping in the PS1 version. One can see slight polygon folding in Alien Trilogy on the Saturn ,but it's tiny and nothing like as bad as the PS version. Tbh I saw more polygon folding on the pitch in Fifa 96 on the Saturn, than in any FPS on the Saturn.

    I would have rather saw Rage allowed to go the route of Exhumed on the Saturn myself.
    Let's use some simple logic here:

    1. Exhumed runs on Lobotomy's Slave Driver Engine and uses polygons. It minimizes texture warping by subdividing polygons, thus it targets 30fps but regularly dips below that.
    2. Quake on Saturn runs in the same Slave Driver Engine as Exhumed.
    3. id Software and Carmack approved Saturn Quake even with it's minimal texture warping.


    Conclusion: Carmack would not have had an issue with Doom using polygons if it was using the same approach as Exhumed or Quake.


    But we all know Carmack didn't approve Doom running using quads to draw everything due to texture warping. So that tells us the texture warping had to be far worse than what we see in any of Lobotomy's games. Since it was supposedly running at 60fps, that means it had to be using huge quads which would have pretty bad texture warping. Again look at that 3DO video when he turns on polygon rendering. Look at how the Door behaves when he gets close to it. That's probably pretty close to what Carmack was seeing in this early polygon rendered version of Saturn Doom.

    Basically quit bringing up Lobotomy's games here. It's very likely that this unreleased version of Saturn Doom had no where near the level of effort put into it to reduce texture warping as those games had.

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