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Thread: Doom on the Saturn

  1. #76
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher StuOhQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    Probably worth reading the thread...

    Simplified summary:

    -id hires Jim Bagley (Rage Software) to port Doom to the Saturn.
    -Bagley creates a prototype that uses polygons but has affine texture warping.
    -Carmack tells Bagley he hates affine texture warping and to avoid polygons in favor of perspective-correct texture mapping like the original Doom.
    -Bagley either doesn't have enough time or skill to do the job well and ends up using the Saturn's VDP1 in a way that is inefficient.
    -Hexen on the Saturn is an example of how Doom could have been done better.

    Please correct me if I got anything wrong.
    I enjoyed Hexen on the N64. How does the Saturn version compare?

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    What do you think VDP1 is? It's the Saturn's custom GFX hardware.



    I've stated this multiple times. If you had read more than the snippet you quoted you'd see I said exactly what sacrifices games like Exhumed made. But here, I highlighted the important part for you:





    As for Space Hulk, it moves the camera in very specific predefined movements. So it can more easily avoid that issue as well.






    Seriously, work on your reading skills. This has been going on for years with you and I for one am sick and tired of it.
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  3. #78
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    I think it's a fair assumption to make that it had noticeable warping for reasons already mentioned. There were very few (any?) 60fps first person shooters on the Saturn, and the smoothest ones tended to have corners cut somewhere. Simple level designs, for example, or as in the example you give, very short draw distances. Doom doesn't have the most complicated level designs but they're not particularly simple either, and short draw distances would have ruined the game. Given that, if the Doom port was 60fps it was likely using larger quads with less subdivision (or other techniques) in order to reduce workload. Larger quads = more warping when viewed at an angle.

    No, the Saturn doesn't typically suffer from the same amount of warping as the PS1 due to not having to split square textures into triangles, but it's not free from it either. Duke Nukem 3D, for example, is held as being a very good port, but it runs at under 30fps a lot of the time and it has quite severe warping at points.
    Works both ways and Duke was a different game to Doom with bigger environments and floors on top of floors . I don't really remember anyone saying the PS verison looked better thanks to less warping, In the same way I didn't see anyone saying the Saturn version of Alien Trilogy was looked better thanks to less warping. Duke on the PS also has issues with the Frame rate .

    There's far more warping in Exhumed on the PS , but still not enough to hurt the game or distract the player and TBH I can't remember warping being a factor in Saturn Quake .

    I would have put up with Warping if it meant a much better frame rate and a game that looked and moved better than the PS one
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    Quote Originally Posted by StuOhQ View Post
    I enjoyed Hexen on the N64. How does the Saturn version compare?
    Looks sharper (whether that's an improvement or not is a matter of personal taste), runs considerably worse, only has front facing sprites for the enemies.

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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Works both ways and Duke was a different game to Doom with bigger environments and floors on top of floors . I don't really remember anyone saying the PS verison looked better thanks to less warping, In the same way I didn't see anyone saying the Saturn version of Alien Trilogy was looked better thanks to less warping. Duke on the PS also has issues with the Frame rate .

    There's far more warping in Exhumed on the PS , but still not enough to hurt the game or distract the player and TBH I can't remember warping being a factor in Saturn Quake .

    I would have put up with Warping if it meant a much better frame rate and a game that looked and moved better than the PS one
    He just explained to you the same thing I explained to you. If Doom was running at 60fps on the Saturn the only way that could be possible is if it was using large quads and not subdividing them. That would lead to very bad texture warping. Almost all the games you've mentioned (Exhumed, Duke 3D, Quake, etc.) avoid the issue by subdividing the quads to make them smaller as the camera gets closer to them to avoid the issue. If you would actually take the time to read and understand posts you would have picked up on this a few pages ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Darkon warned me years ago what a nasty piece of work, you really are ..I really should have heeded his advice, but I will now .
    If you'd just work on your reading skills a bit, 90% of the problems you run into on this forum could be avoided. Also I'm puzzled about Darkon warning you about me considering I've never really interacted with him on these forums. Did you perhaps mean Drakon?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    Looks sharper (whether that's an improvement or not is a matter of personal taste), runs considerably worse, only has front facing sprites for the enemies.
    Some messages before I asked if this was a factor for the game to run better than Doom for the Sega Saturn or not, or just plain coding differences. I suppose if they discarded the full animation sprites for the enemies in Hexen for the Sega Saturn (the PlayStation version is also that way) was for a reason. I wonder how the game would run if they are restored. In fact, the game behaviour is still thinking the animations are there, since some enemies can still be found dormant like in the original game because of their positioning not looking at you, even if they visually seem like they are. This was corrected in the 32X and SNES versions of Doom so the enemies are always looking at you, and therefore they always detect you on sight, no matter how they were positioned in the original game.
    http://www.sega-16.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=154&dateline=15683853  53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesker View Post
    Some messages before I asked if this was a factor for the game to run better than Doom for the Sega Saturn or not, or just plain coding differences. I suppose if they discarded the full animation sprites for the enemies in Hexen for the Sega Saturn (the PlayStation version is also that way) was for a reason. I wonder how the game would run if they are restored. In fact, the game behaviour is still thinking the animations are there, since some enemies can still be found dormant like in the original game because of their positioning not looking at you, even if they visually seem like they are. This was corrected in the 32X and SNES versions of Doom so the enemies are always looking at you, and therefore they always detect you on sight, no matter how they were positioned in the original game.
    I'm not really qualified to say, but assuming no other limitations I wouldn't have thought there would be much performance impact if all the sprites were there. I doubt that the code to determine which sprite to display would be very taxing. I suspect RAM might be a problem though, as running out of memory is a plausible explanation for why they were cut in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    I'm not really qualified to say, but assuming no other limitations I wouldn't have thought there would be much performance impact if all the sprites were there. I doubt that the code to determine which sprite to display would be very taxing. I suspect RAM might be a problem though, as running out of memory is a plausible explanation for why they were cut in the first place.
    Does the Saturn Doom port use either of the RAM expansions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StuOhQ View Post
    Does the Saturn Doom port use either of the RAM expansions?
    No. I think the only Saturn game released outside of Japan with RAM cart support was Marvel Super Heroes.

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    Using the RAM cart may not make things easier since accessing the cart is pretty slow. Loading animation frames in real-time would make things much slower, it's why Marvel Super Heroes was damn near unplayable with the RAM cart. You need to micromanage the shit out of it to keep the framerate up.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    I'm not really qualified to say, but assuming no other limitations I wouldn't have thought there would be much performance impact if all the sprites were there. I doubt that the code to determine which sprite to display would be very taxing. I suspect RAM might be a problem though, as running out of memory is a plausible explanation for why they were cut in the first place.
    Yeah. Another downgraded aspect of Hexen for both the Sega Saturn and PlayStation is simplified geometry level, similar to what happened to Doom for the Jaguar and all versions based on it. Hexen for the Nintendo 64, on the other hand, features the same geometry of the original PC version. But I don't find that limitation so jarring as having all the enemies with only the front facing sprites. Start the first level and you'll see all the enemies apparently looking at you but they aren't, since they are still behaving like the PC version (that is, their placement is actually facing other direction). Odd to say the least.

    I also did some tests with the link cable multiplayer feature of the Sega Saturn version, which was sadly left unfinished, and it's very weird to see the other player moving with only the front facing sprites. That is, until the multiplayer game flow eventually breaks, which unfortunately doesn't take much time.
    http://www.sega-16.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=154&dateline=15683853  53

  12. #87
    HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG Raging in the Streets Moirai's Avatar
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    So saturn doom was crippled purposely because John didnt want it to look better than his precious PC version.

    cunt.

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moirai View Post
    So saturn doom was crippled purposely because John didnt want it to look better than his precious PC version.

    cunt.
    No, it was crippled because the guy they hired to do it couldn't get the job done the way they wanted.

  14. #89
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    John didn't like the texture warping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    John didn't like the texture warping.
    John didn't allow texture warping in this particular console port.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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