Quantcast

Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 140

Thread: Doom on the Saturn

  1. #16
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One SegaDreamcast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    87
    Rep Power
    5

    Default

    Anyone else hyped for Doom 64's rerelease? I thought it was awesome back in the day, ambient soundtrack by Aubrey Hodges was especially memorable and I always liked pre-rendered graphics.

  2. #17
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,776
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Hexen doesn't use VDP1 to render the walls, floors, etc. VDP1 just draws character sprites, objects, etc. The walls, floors, etc. are instead drawn by VDP2.
    The walls are not being drawn by the VDP 2 .
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  3. #18
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,776
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    Yes, because the Jag version's engine had no texture warping, and neither did the Playstation version after taking an unusual approach to hardware rendering on the system. Both versions managed good implementations of perspective correct texturing (or near to it). For Carmack to forbid the use of the Saturn's quad distorting abilities, it's reasonable to assume that the WIP Saturn version did indeed have affine warping. As I said, Carmack abandoned the initial version of the Playstation engine for the same reason. If Saturn Doom had been using a hardware accelerated engine with no warping, I'm sure it would have been approved.

    As for Hexen, there is no warping but I highly suspect that is mainly using software rendering too; the floors and walls are drawn on VDP2 layer NBG0, with VDP1 drawing enemies, decorations, and the GUI. NBG0 is just a 2D scrollable background. However, look at Duke Nukem 3D and Quake: both use the highly praised Slavedriver engine, and both feature distortion from affine texturing. The warping is less pronounced than warping typically is on the PS1 due to the Saturn's use of quads rather than triangles, but it's there. It's hard to unsee once you notice it, and it obviously bothered JC enough that he wouldn't allow it in versions of Doom, though he later admitted that he probably shouldn't have been so hard line.
    Hexxen isn't using the VDP2 for the walls TBH. Also look at games like Deadlus and Alien Trilogy they don't suffer from warping. It was madness not to allow the VDP 1 to handle the graphics and very much double standards on id part .
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  4. #19
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Age
    32
    Posts
    8,216
    Rep Power
    128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The walls are not being drawn by the VDP 2 .
    Yes they are. Hexen uses a software renderer as well. The Doom Engine that both games use on PC works by drawing walls line by line, and both Saturn ports look to still be doing this. The key difference though is that Doom on the Saturn is treating each line like a 1 pixel high Sprite and having VDP1 draw them, while Hexen is having VDP2 draw all the lines to one of it's background layers. Anyone who's done Saturn work will tell you that VDP1 is the choke point. It's horribly slow and doesn't have the fill rate to really fill the entire screen buffer at a good speed. VDP2 has more fill rate if I remember correctly so it makes sense that handing off the task of drawing lines to fill the screen would work faster on VDP2 than on VDP1.

    That said, Hexen still doesn't run that great on Saturn. It's better than Doom, but I'd say we're still looking at high teens to low 20s for the frame rate.

  5. #20
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Birmingham, UK
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,255
    Rep Power
    34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Hexxen isn't using the VDP2 for the walls TBH. Also look at games like Deadlus and Alien Trilogy they don't suffer from warping. It was madness not to allow the VDP 1 to handle the graphics and very much double standards on id part .
    Hexen's walls, floors, and ceilings are likely software rendered and then displayed as a VDP2 layer. Check it yourself, the environment minus sprites and GUI is drawn as a complete frame on VDP2 NBG0 and is not made up of VDP1 sprites.

    Robotica/Daedalus and Alien Trilogy exhibit little obvious warping, but there are subtle artifacts that are noticeable and are not present in Doom or Hexen. Robotica's wall textures are a little unstable looking when you turn; it's subtle, but they kind of wobble when you move or turn. Alien Trilogy also has very minor glitches when the angle/distance a texture is viewed at changes (especially at tight angles) that are not present in Doom or Hexen, and are possibly the result of techniques used to avoid warping.

    What works in one game won't necessarily work in others anyway. Those two games managed to use VDP1 to render the walls while avoiding readily noticeable warping, but they were dark, had rather short draw distances, and were largely based around tight corridors. Doom, Hexen, Duke 3D, and Quake featured more open levels and longer draw distances, so the same optimisations that avoided warping may not have been possible there. Robotica in particular had very simple level designs.

    Besides, other games have no bearing on the discussion as John Carmack had nothing to do with them. Doom was his game, and he decided that he didn't want hardware quad warping used as he didn't want any texture warping or popping at all. It was perhaps too extreme, but there's nothing hypocritical in his stance considering the same appears true of all versions of Doom up until that point. Hell, Hexen might even confirm the consistency if it's software rendered considering it's AFAIK the only other port of a Doom engine game on the system.

  6. #21
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,776
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    Hexen's walls, floors, and ceilings are likely software rendered and then displayed as a VDP2 layer. Check it yourself, the environment minus sprites and GUI is drawn as a complete frame on VDP2 NBG0 and is not made up of VDP1 sprites.

    Robotica/Daedalus and Alien Trilogy exhibit little obvious warping, but there are subtle artifacts that are noticeable and are not present in Doom or Hexen. Robotica's wall textures are a little unstable looking when you turn; it's subtle, but they kind of wobble when you move or turn. Alien Trilogy also has very minor glitches when the angle/distance a texture is viewed at changes (especially at tight angles) that are not present in Doom or Hexen, and are possibly the result of techniques used to avoid warping.

    What works in one game won't necessarily work in others anyway. Those two games managed to use VDP1 to render the walls while avoiding readily noticeable warping, but they were dark, had rather short draw distances, and were largely based around tight corridors. Doom, Hexen, Duke 3D, and Quake featured more open levels and longer draw distances, so the same optimisations that avoided warping may not have been possible there. Robotica in particular had very simple level designs.

    Besides, other games have no bearing on the discussion as John Carmack had nothing to do with them. Doom was his game, and he decided that he didn't want hardware quad warping used as he didn't want any texture warping or popping at all. It was perhaps too extreme, but there's nothing hypocritical in his stance considering the same appears true of all versions of Doom up until that point. Hell, Hexen might even confirm the consistency if it's software rendered considering it's AFAIK the only other port of a Doom engine game on the system.
    I very much doubt Hexen is using the VDP II to handle the walls and the floor since it's only got 2 scrolling layers and Hexen doesn't really have just flat walls but has a mixture of Windows, Piliers, Arches and so on. I would sort of agree with you that it's software and VDP1 driven. I never saw any warping in Deadlus TBH and actually thought in May 1995 it was a really nice looking game, with hands down the best FMV saw on the Saturn at the time. Shame that Micronet looked to make random generated levels ever time you played and so all levels looked the same (like Toe Jam and Earl) there'a little in Alien Trilogy, but it's hardly a massive, can't remember much in Baroque either or even in Exhumed (unlike the PS version)

    If Doom on the Jag had been software-driven it wouldn't have been half the game, so think it was very silly and a little bit hypocritical not to allow Rage to use the custom hardware of the Saturn. To me it defeats the object of putting the game on the consoles, because back then, they didn't have the CPU speed and looked to the custom chips to make up the difference. The Saturn could have had the best-looking console version and also one running at double the speed of the PS.
    Instead, we had a crap port and PS fans and mag's used it has more proof the Saturn was rubbish at 3D (even if it wasn't really a 3D polygon game). It would have been better if John said no to the Saturn version, thanks to his stance we got a worse version, rather than the best, even if it would have a little warping who care's. Instead it was game used to bash the Saturn and make the PS look great again
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  7. #22
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Age
    32
    Posts
    8,216
    Rep Power
    128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I very much doubt Hexen is using the VDP II to handle the walls and the floor since it's only got 2 scrolling layers and Hexen doesn't really have just flat walls but has a mixture of Windows, Piliers, Arches and so on. I would sort of agree with you that it's software and VDP1 driven. I never saw any warping in Deadlus TBH and actually thought in May 1995 it was a really nice looking game, with hands down the best FMV saw on the Saturn at the time. Shame that Micronet looked to make random generated levels ever time you played and so all levels looked the same (like Toe Jam and Earl) there'a little in Alien Trilogy, but it's hardly a massive, can't remember much in Baroque either or even in Exhumed (unlike the PS version)
    When we disable VDP2, we see this is what remains in Hexen:


    When we re-enable VDP2 and disable VDP1, this is what remains:


    It's pretty clear that VDP2 is what's drawing the walls, floors, ceilings, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    If Doom on the Jag had been software-driven it wouldn't have been half the game, so think it was very silly and a little bit hypocritical not to allow Rage to use the custom hardware of the Saturn. To me it defeats the object of putting the game on the consoles, because back then, they didn't have the CPU speed and looked to the custom chips to make up the difference. The Saturn could have had the best-looking console version and also one running at double the speed of the PS.
    Instead, we had a crap port and PS fans and mag's used it has more proof the Saturn was rubbish at 3D (even if it wasn't really a 3D polygon game). It would have been better if John said no to the Saturn version, thanks to his stance we got a worse version, rather than the best, even if it would have a little warping who care's. Instead it was game used to bash the Saturn and make the PS look great again
    Doom on the Jaguar is Software driven, just like the 32X Version.

  8. #23
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,776
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    When we disable VDP2, we see this is what remains in Hexen:


    When we re-enable VDP2 and disable VDP1, this is what remains:


    It's pretty clear that VDP2 is what's drawing the walls, floors, ceilings, etc.
    Consider me owned on that one






    Doom on the Jaguar is Software driven, just like the 32X Version
    What on the Jaguar limted 68000 main CPU? .
    John rewrote the code for the Jaguar version and looked to make use of the RISC custom chips and also look to use the Jaguar CRY colour.
    Without using Tom I very much doubt the game would have looked or moved as good
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  9. #24
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Age
    32
    Posts
    8,216
    Rep Power
    128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    What on the Jaguar limted 68000 main CPU? .
    John rewrote the code for the Jaguar version and looked to make use of the RISC custom chips and also look to use the Jaguar CRY colour.
    Without using Tom I very much doubt the game would have looked or moved as good
    You realize that the 68000 isn't supposed to be the main CPU on the Jaguar right? Atari intended people to use the RISC chips, but most developers opted for the 68000 because it was easier. Doom uses the Tom and Jerry chips as intended, but it's using them to crunch through the math for the software rendering code. That's why there's no music. Both chips are being used to run the software rendering code.

  10. #25
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,776
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    You realize that the 68000 isn't supposed to be the main CPU on the Jaguar right? Atari intended people to use the RISC chips, but most developers opted for the 68000 because it was easier. .
    That goes with out saying, that's my point; I remember the interview with John in Edge and thanks to using the custom chips in the Jaguar games would run20 times faster than if he did in software and used the 68000.

    The Saturn's power (or lack of) came from its VDP1 and VDP2 chips and it's a shame John was so against Jim making full use of the VDP1. Instead, we got a Saturn version which pleased no one and didn't make Doom look great. It was self-defeating.
    Ok by 1997 Doom was a old game, but it still would have been good to a Saturn version with all the detail of the PSX version, running full screen and double the frame rate.

    In the end we got a game that was a little better than the 3DO version, Cheer's John, great call.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  11. #26
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Age
    32
    Posts
    8,216
    Rep Power
    128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    That goes with out saying, that's my point; I remember the interview with John in Edge and thanks to using the custom chips in the Jaguar games would run20 times faster than if he did in software and used the 68000.
    Ok, this is where you really need to work on your reading comprehension as it's where you get yourself into trouble on this forum. Carmack here is talking about the 68000 vs the custom chips in the Jaguar. He is not however saying that Doom on Jaguar is a hardware accelerated port. The Jaguar Port is still using a variant of Dooms software renderer. You can look at the source code yourself as it has been released publicly. The Jaguar's Tom and Jerry chips do have custom bits in them for Graphics and Sound yes, but they are also very powerful RISC CPUs. Carmack is referring to this aspect of them in comparison to the 68000. He's referring to the RISC CPUs, not saying that it's a hardware accelerated port of Doom with polygons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The Saturn's power (or lack of) came from its VDP1 and VDP2 chips and it's a shame John was so against Jim making full use of the VDP1. Instead, we got a Saturn version which pleased no one and didn't make Doom look great. It was self-defeating.
    Ok by 1997 Doom was a old game, but it still would have been good to a Saturn version with all the detail of the PSX version, running full screen and double the frame rate.

    In the end we got a game that was a little better than the 3DO version, Cheer's John, great call.
    Saturn Doom IS making full use of VDP1. And that's why it's running so poorly. VDP1 is the Saturn's choke point. It's slow, memory wasteful, and inefficient. Saturn Doom is using the Doom Software Rendering code and is using VDP1 sprites to draw each individual line as a sprite for the Walls, floors, etc. That's why it's running so slow. That's a lot of sprites and VDP1 with it's slow performance and low fillrate simply can't keep up. PS1 can do that fine though as it's GPU is much faster. VDP2 is much more suited to doing something like that (Filling the screen line by line), which is probably why Probe went that route with Hexen and is probably why it runs better.

    If you think the software renderer is the choke point for Saturn Doom, then go look at the 32X version. It too is using the classic Doom software renderer and is running on the same CPUs as the Saturn but at a lower speed and with less Memory. Yet it still manages to maintain a frame rate of around 20fps.

    As for using distorted quads to render the walls, people have tried that with the 3DO version and found that it doesn't help that much. You either get horrible texture warping, or you have to subdivide the polygons so much that that you end up still hitting fillrate limits.

  12. #27
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,776
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    The Jag verison is using the custom chips , one couldn't use the crappy CPU . The 32X verison is running in lower Res and in a Window (even on NTSC) maybe there was an argument for Jim and Rage going that way on the Saturn, but even then I sure most would have bashed the Saturn version, since the 32X looked like crap compared to the Jaguar.

    Jim went into a bit of Detail with his port with Retro and he was going to have the VDP1 and the main SH2 handle the sprites , while the slave SH2 was going to handle the walls with the VDP2

    Only for John to stop it, even though Jim said it looked better and run at double the frame rate of the PS verison . I do admire Jim for keeping his silence on the Subject untill 2014 with the Retro feature .

    Many of us here and elsewhere slagged off the port and Rage software and it must have damaged Jim portfolio a little . But he never hit out and respected John call. That's a lot about the man .
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  13. #28
    Outrunner Wesker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    679
    Rep Power
    30

    Default

    I suppose the fact that Hexen for the Sega Saturn relies on displaying one-sided enemies always facing you, sort of like Doom for the 32X and the SNES do, is also a factor against Doom for the Sega Saturn which features full-sided enemies. I always wondered about what would be the performance of Hexen for the Sega Saturn, as it is programmed, without cutting those animation frames. Hexen for the PlayStation does the same too, in fact.
    http://www.sega-16.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=154&dateline=15683853  53

  14. #29
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,282
    Rep Power
    38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    VDP2 is much more suited to doing something like that (Filling the screen line by line), which is probably why Probe went that route with Hexen and is probably why it runs better.
    The VDP2 can't fill the screen line by line, not how the Doom renderer works anyway. You need to do software rendering on the SH2s, and then you copy over the final result to the VDP2 for display (SH2 HIRAM is 2x as fast as writing to VDP2 RAM, so even assuming for the time it takes to copy over a frame, you'd be faster drawing into HIRAM).

    It's probably what Hexen does, and I'm assuming that so would other software rendered games (AMOK, the Sonic R loading screen, etc).

  15. #30
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Age
    32
    Posts
    8,216
    Rep Power
    128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The Jag verison is using the custom chips , one couldn't use the crappy CPU .
    For the love of good work on your reading comprehension as it's quite poor. Those custom chips are RISC Processors. Those are the processors handling the software rendering code for Doom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    The 32X verison is running in lower Res and in a Window (even on NTSC) maybe there was an argument for Jim and Rage going that way on the Saturn, but even then I sure most would have bashed the Saturn version, since the 32X looked like crap compared to the Jaguar.
    And a lot of that comes from the 32X being clocked lower and having far less memory available and having to fit on a small cart. That said it still would have probably been a good starting point for a Saturn port due to the similar dual SH-2 set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Jim went into a bit of Detail with his port with Retro and he was going to have the VDP1 and the main SH2 handle the sprites , while the slave SH2 was going to handle the walls with the VDP2

    Only for John to stop it, even though Jim said it looked better and run at double the frame rate of the PS verison . I do admire Jim for keeping his silence on the Subject untill 2014 with the Retro feature .
    Again reading comprehension. Jim was going to have VDP1 draw the sprites and walls with VDP2 only drawing background graphics. While that may have ran better, we don't know how bad the texture warping was for Carmack to throw it out. What you described is what Hexen is doing which is still software rendering.


    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    The VDP2 can't fill the screen line by line, not how the Doom renderer works anyway. You need to do software rendering on the SH2s, and then you copy over the final result to the VDP2 for display (SH2 HIRAM is 2x as fast as writing to VDP2 RAM, so even assuming for the time it takes to copy over a frame, you'd be faster drawing into HIRAM).

    It's probably what Hexen does, and I'm assuming that so would other software rendered games (AMOK, the Sonic R loading screen, etc).
    Sorry, that's what I was trying to get at.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •