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Thread: Do you think Sega-CD achieved its primary purpose?

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    Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    The ASIC, large amount of RAM, extra CPU and 8 channel PCM chip were nice and all but barely used so what was the point? Just made the system overly expensive. The Mega-CD really suffered from a lack of direction. Contrast that to the PCE-CD where the push to CD-ROM was in the cards from day one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The ASIC, large amount of RAM, extra CPU and 8 channel PCM chip were nice and all but barely used so what was the point? Just made the system overly expensive. The Mega-CD really suffered from a lack of direction. Contrast that to the PCE-CD where the push to CD-ROM was in the cards from day one.
    That's with the benefit of hindsight mind. If the Mega CD had sold better, then Market share would have meant it would have better support , it wasn't like the PC Eng CD Rom was cheap either.

    I totally blame SEGA Japan mind; They really should have used the system far more and showed off and used the ASIC chip far more with ports of their Arcade games and even looked to improve ports of Golden Axe with sprite scaling effects on the magic for the CD version.

    While I like to sing the praises of SEGA America in making the system worth owing, they really went to far with the FMV games and spent just way too much money and time on them. When we should have had more games like Spiderman Vs the Kingpin Ect, in using established and well like Mega Drive games and looking to improve on them for special Mega CD versions .

    All that said, I was far more impressed and enjoyed the Mega CD far more, than my PC Eng CD- Rom ( I did love Splash Lake mind )
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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The ASIC, large amount of RAM, extra CPU and 8 channel PCM chip were nice and all but barely used so what was the point? Just made the system overly expensive. The Mega-CD really suffered from a lack of direction. Contrast that to the PCE-CD where the push to CD-ROM was in the cards from day one.
    I think the RAM was a good call. The PC Engine took a hit from having too many RAM upgrades and different configurations. I don't think Sega could have had a Super Sega CD format.


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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I think the RAM was a good call. The PC Engine took a hit from having too many RAM upgrades and different configurations. I don't think Sega could have had a Super Sega CD format.
    It only has two ram upgrades. And to be honest, CD games on it pretty much gained popularity with the Duo, which already had the ram upgrade. So really, from a lot of gamer's perspective it's only one ram upgrade - the Arcade Card.

    The PCE took a hit for not having enough ram, not too many ram upgrades. 64k main ram was just sooo tiny. If cost was an issue, they should have have additional much-cheaper slow ram (128k slow ram + 64k fast ram). The CD unit has access to /RDY on the CPU so it makes interfacing slow ram pretty easy. The Hucard slot does not! Which means the cpu would have dropped down to 1.79mhz to access anything slower, which is a crappier than /RDY against ~3mhz slow ram. So they were stuck with putting more ram on the hucard.. and it had to be the more expensive fast ram. 256k CDram was still not enough for the SuperCD. 384k would have given a lot more breathing room.


    Anyway, the SegaCD is over engineered (and missing some easier potential benefits of lesser low cost features), and the PCECD is under engineered (missing the same opportunity mentioned for the SegaCD but has more of an impact on the PCE CD).

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    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingNameless One SegaDreamcast's Avatar
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    Sega CD

    Imo, to the casual consumer, the Sega CD was about market interest for Full Motion Video gaming in home consoles. A bit less so expanding on traditional 16-Bit experiences.

    A casual wouldn't be able to discern the difference between Mickey Mania on the Sega CD or Final Fight CD easily but Sewer Shark, Dragon's Lair, Space Ace, The Adventures of Willy Beamish, and Night Trap capture the attention instantly. It's a major reason people remember the 'Sonic Boom' intro in Sonic CD so well.

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    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    It only has two ram upgrades. And to be honest, CD games on it pretty much gained popularity with the Duo, which already had the ram upgrade. So really, from a lot of gamer's perspective it's only one ram upgrade - the Arcade Card.

    The PCE took a hit for not having enough ram, not too many ram upgrades. 64k main ram was just sooo tiny. If cost was an issue, they should have have additional much-cheaper slow ram (128k slow ram + 64k fast ram). The CD unit has access to /RDY on the CPU so it makes interfacing slow ram pretty easy. The Hucard slot does not! Which means the cpu would have dropped down to 1.79mhz to access anything slower, which is a crappier than /RDY against ~3mhz slow ram. So they were stuck with putting more ram on the hucard.. and it had to be the more expensive fast ram. 256k CDram was still not enough for the SuperCD. 384k would have given a lot more breathing room.
    Perhaps I wasn't clear but I wasn't talking about the RAM from a technical perspective. There were more than two RAM upgrades in terms of the number of distinct items put on the market. The full range of hardware released in Japan was confusing to average consumers and would have been totally unfeasible anywhere else. It was definitely a good thing for Sega that the Mega CD didn't have a RAM upgrade, followed by a RAM-expanded version of the CDX, then another add-on model with the extra RAM built in, followed by another RAM upgrade that comes in two different versions depending on how much RAM your base hardware has. NEC/TTi made the right call in not bringing over the Arcade Card, or the Super CD unit, or the umpteen CoreGrafx models.

    Also the very name "Super CD-ROM2", and it being version 3.0, is awfully unintuitive. People less familiar with the system look at me funny when I tell them that "CD-ROM2" is actually the same thing as "Turbografx CD" and the "2" doesn't mean it's an upgrade nor is it a reference to the Duo. They often then ask me "what happened to CD-ROM1", or why the Super CD-ROM2 format isn't just called CD-ROM3.


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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    It only has two ram upgrades. And to be honest, CD games on it pretty much gained popularity with the Duo, which already had the ram upgrade. So really, from a lot of gamer's perspective it's only one ram upgrade - the Arcade Card.

    The PCE took a hit for not having enough ram, not too many ram upgrades. 64k main ram was just sooo tiny. If cost was an issue, they should have have additional much-cheaper slow ram (128k slow ram + 64k fast ram). The CD unit has access to /RDY on the CPU so it makes interfacing slow ram pretty easy. The Hucard slot does not! Which means the cpu would have dropped down to 1.79mhz to access anything slower, which is a crappier than /RDY against ~3mhz slow ram. So they were stuck with putting more ram on the hucard.. and it had to be the more expensive fast ram. 256k CDram was still not enough for the SuperCD. 384k would have given a lot more breathing room.


    Anyway, the SegaCD is over engineered (and missing some easier potential benefits of lesser low cost features), and the PCECD is under engineered (missing the same opportunity mentioned for the SegaCD but has more of an impact on the PCE CD).
    Good post.

    Well, at the very least, the whole PCE CD thing (and all its updates and upgrades) succeeded into providing a somewhat linear technical evolution of the kind of games which were important to the Japanese market.
    RPGs and Action RPGs looked and sounded better and better.
    The same for shooters and fighting games.
    I feel like the architecture scaled pretty well despite all the issues that we can point out.


    The Sega CD is more of a clusterfuck, really.
    I fully recognize and enjoy the amazing realization of games such as Batman Returns (please, only the batmobile parts, the MD platformer is vomit-inducing), Soulstar, Wing Commander, Final Fight CD, The Terminator and a few others.
    But for the most part it was a chore to develop for and to get a substantial technical "upgrade" when compared to the cartridge releases, despite the insane amount of hardware it throws on top of the Mega Drive.

    The Ricoh soundchip was great at providing most of the PCM-related features the YM2612 lacked, but it was also very limited in terms of RAM size (especially considering the lack of ADPCM support) and you had to "manually" reload it all the time.
    In the long run it showed to be insufficient for fighting games and PCM-heavy action games.
    One may say that Mickey Mania proves me wrong not but it's the opposite: main game runs on the MD's 68K while the Sega CD's CPU becomes a work RAM and audio RAM manager, feeding the Ricoh chip all the time.

    Games which fit better the Sega CD are actually the ones which fit most the SNES shortcomings (except raw CPU processing) and can be done within the (awful) MD's VDP color palette limitations as well.
    Without going to retard levels of trickery and hard programming, you'd need more segmented action scenes to be able to fit things into the work RAM and not so lengthy PCM samples that you can fit in its tiny audio RAM without having to resort to noticeably downgraded quality and/or shortened versions of the samples, just like the SNES.

    For what I've seen, you begin to have some small cuts when you see ports of well-developed 12-16 Mbit carts to it and it only gets worse as you try to realize things that a 32 Mbit (and up) cart would allow on the MD.
    I really don't think you'd be able to port games such as Bio-Hazard Battle, UMK3, WWF Wrestlemania: The Arcade Game, Toy Story, Beyond Oasis, The Story of Thor, Comix Zone, Joe & Mac, etc. without bloody difficult programming and/or noticeable cuts.

    Some people around here seem to enjoy downplaying the PCE hardware to ridiculous levels but the fact is the SNES simply couldn't cope with a proper Cotton game like it had, Lords of Thunder, Rondo of Blood and, much less, Saphire. I also doubt it could cope with After Burner as it had.
    The Arcade card Neo Geo ports are also amazing for the most part.
    Last edited by Barone; 04-17-2020 at 01:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I can barely think of any Mega Drive game that's actually better than the Mega CD version of the same game. The issue for SEGA was the base Mega Drive userbase was so big and it had trouble supporting both the Mega Drive and Mega CD (along with other formats like Game Gear and Master System) Whereas with Hudson they just seemed to go all out for the CDrom and it had the userbase in Japan to make it viable
    Because of the success of the Mega Drive worldwide, large cart sizes could be justified. Typical large cart games can't be done 1:1 on Mega-CD, which is why they didn't happen and you only saw CD versions of games that made sense to do on CD.

    A good example is Bonk 3 CD. The main character lost something like 90% of its graphics to run a single segment of a stage within 2 megs of space.

    Street Fighter II SCE was reported to have targeted Mega-CD until they realized that even with SNES sized assets, major cuts would be required.

    Similarly, building a game from the ground up for CD format allows you to do what couldn't be achieved in cart sizes from bitd.
    Last edited by Black_Tiger; 04-17-2020 at 03:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Because of the success of the Mega Drive worldwide, large cart sizes could be justified. Typical large cart games can't be done 1:1 on Mega-CD, which is why they didn't happen and you only saw CD versions of games that made sense to do on CD.

    A good example is Bonk 3 CD. The main character lost something like 90% of its graphics to run a single segment of a stage within 2 megs of space.

    Street Fighter II SCE was reported to have targeted Mega-CD until they realized that even with SNES sized assets, major cuts would be required.

    Similarly, building a game from the ground up for CD format allows you to do what couldn't be achieved in cart sizes from bitd.
    High prices of the Mega Drive carts was still a issue, no matter the user base. We can all give the odd example, Earthworm Jim was a 24 Meg Cart and won awards for it's animation on the Mega Drive and yet the Mega CD version, was far better in every way and added more animation. The Mega CD versions of Enteral Champions and Mortal Kombat was also way better. I used to buy the reason given for the lack of a Mega CD version of SF II was due to worries over animation cuts, but then I read a while back its was all down to the deal with SEGA and Capcom that it had to be done for the base Mega Drive and that was in the contract.

    And I disagree a little with sorry. SEGA should have looked to build on some of its IP and made special Mega CD versions woth extra's thanks to CD . Its a shame we didn't get Mega CD versions on Chakan: The Forever Man with intro's, more animation, far better music, same for the likes of Quackshot, J.League Pro Striker, Landstalker, Moonwalker, Streets Of Rage II Ect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Good post.
    The Arcade card Neo Geo ports are also amazing for the most part.
    What are the Neo Geo ports?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    What are the Neo Geo ports?
    Quest of Jongmaster
    Art of Fighting
    World Heroes 2
    Fatal Fury 2
    Fatal Fury Special
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    I was just lurking era and they had a topic on if you owned any bad consoles in the 90s. Sega CD and Sega Saturn are brought up a lot. So now in revisionist history, these were awful systems. Some mentions of TG16 but none about T-CD. Not mention AVGN. So I think SCD is always viewed as an FMV machine and a POS. SCD had some great games but I think think the PCE-CD is a better system. I think it had a lot more to offer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post

    Also the very name "Super CD-ROM2", and it being version 3.0, is awfully unintuitive. People less familiar with the system look at me funny when I tell them that "CD-ROM2" is actually the same thing as "Turbografx CD" and the "2" doesn't mean it's an upgrade nor is it a reference to the Duo. They often then ask me "what happened to CD-ROM1", or why the Super CD-ROM2 format isn't just called CD-ROM3.
    It was confusing, but I think most PC Eng gamers were die hard and really in to gaming knew their stuff and knew the difference.

    I always found the naming of Mega Drive 2 and Mega CD 2 to be silly and confusing to some of the causals. And speaking of the Mega Drive 2 and Mega CD 2 that's why SEGA messed up and didn't show enough faith in the Mega CD. It really should have been an all in one unit like the Duo and I feel that really would have helped with sales while SEGA phased out the out Mega Drive and Mega CD.

    It was also a shame SEGA never made Thunder Force IV remix for the Mega CD maybe some added levels, some fancy sprite effects and a real rock track with real rock music for the Rock Gods that were Sepultura at the time (1993/4) that would have been so kick ass LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    Perhaps I wasn't clear but I wasn't talking about the RAM from a technical perspective. There were more than two RAM upgrades in terms of the number of distinct items put on the market. The full range of hardware released in Japan was confusing to average consumers and would have been totally unfeasible anywhere else. It was definitely a good thing for Sega that the Mega CD didn't have a RAM upgrade, followed by a RAM-expanded version of the CDX, then another add-on model with the extra RAM built in, followed by another RAM upgrade that comes in two different versions depending on how much RAM your base hardware has. NEC/TTi made the right call in not bringing over the Arcade Card, or the Super CD unit, or the umpteen CoreGrafx models.

    Also the very name "Super CD-ROM2", and it being version 3.0, is awfully unintuitive. People less familiar with the system look at me funny when I tell them that "CD-ROM2" is actually the same thing as "Turbografx CD" and the "2" doesn't mean it's an upgrade nor is it a reference to the Duo. They often then ask me "what happened to CD-ROM1", or why the Super CD-ROM2 format isn't just called CD-ROM3.
    It wasn't confusing for the market it was made for. Once you get into theoretical scenarios, the simple answer is that a region friendly naming system could have been used.

    There weren't any CD-ROMROM games in North America and there was no 1.0 - 2.3 system cards. There were only "Turbo-CD" or "TurboGrafx-CD" games. Then TTi introduced "Super CD" games and no one was confused.

    I have seen a lot of "retro" gamers play dumb over the years and claim that PC Engine/TG-16 is too complicated to figure out and there are more hardware configurations than anything released bitd till now.

    But it just happened to be part of the same generation that introduced the Mega Drive.

    PC Engine game formats:

    TurboChips
    PC Engine HuCards
    CD2
    SCD
    ACD
    LD-ROM2


    Mega Drive formats:

    Sega Mark III carts
    Sega Mark III My Cards
    Sega Master System carts (not all work correctly in other regions)
    Sega Master System Sega Cards
    Japanese Mega Drive carts (many are region locked)
    Japanese Mega-CD (region + video lock)
    European Mega Drive carts (not all work correctly in other regions)
    European Mega-CD (region + video lock)
    Brazil Mega Drive carts
    Brazil Mega-CD
    Genesis carts (many are region locked)
    Sega-CD (region + video lock)
    Sega Mega Modem games (requires correct hardware combo + service)
    Sega Channel (requires correct hardware combo + service)
    Japan Super 32X carts (pile of locks)
    Japan Super 32X CD (pile of locks)
    Europe 32X carts (pile of locks)
    Europe 32X CD (pile of locks)
    Brazil 32X (pile of locks)
    Brazil 32X CD (pile of locks)
    Genesis 32X (pile of locks and psus)
    Genesis 32X CD (pile of locks and and psus)
    Mega-LD


    When you get into different models or hardware and accessories required to run games, I believe that if you include regional variants of PC Engine but exclude regional variants of the Mega Drive family, the Mega Drive still has many more types of hardware.

    When you look into how many regions of Mega Drive hardware there actually are and how many variations of video signals, voltages and physical power supply configurations are invloved, it is infinitely more confusing than the single power supply format, voltage compatible PC Engine hardware.

    And after all that... you stir in TMSS.


    But it's much rarer to hear people complain anout how confusing the Mega Drive family is. I don't believe that if the PC Engine was as successful worldwide that people would have had trouble bitd or would be playing dumb today.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    It was confusing, but I think most PC Eng gamers were die hard and really in to gaming knew their stuff and knew the difference.
    Japanese consumers weren't as easily confused as people try to make out non-Japanese consumers.

    Even Nintendo consoles had:

    Famicom cart games
    Pre-programmed Famicom Disk games
    Kiosk on-demand FDS games
    Titler video system
    Famicom moden software
    Datach Joint ROM System card software
    Barcode Battler II
    Famicom Data Recorder software
    Kaoroke Studio software


    Super Famicom cart games
    Same Game mini carts
    Nintendo Power software
    Barcode Battler II
    Super Gameboys
    Satellaview software
    Sufami Turbo mini carts games


    That's without getting into the Gameboy family.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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