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Thread: Do you think Sega-CD achieved its primary purpose?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    It turned out to be the best example of how superfluous features can lead to SNES style reverse engineering games around using gimmicks and then trying to piece them together into a game.

    FMV clips from the anime was a great idea... but the quality wasn't great by Mega-CD standards and the scenes chosen looked like they'd be perfectly doable in realtime.

    After initial disappointment that it didn't play like Lunar as the PCE game does, I was relieved that the battles were similar to Shining Force... until a unit attack another. The scaled sprites in a black room with a spotlight really killed the atmosphere.

    All they needed to do was go art heavy, but they went in the opposite direction and it feels like such a waste of the CD format.
    I disagree. I happen to really like Lodoss on the MCD and feel that the intro, CD-quality orchestral music, and anime cut-scenes really add substance to what is already a competent SF clone. I think in this regard it makes good use of the source material and the game is enriched as a result, rather than being a bland/generic SRPG.

    Iíve never really played the PCE version as RPGs in Japanese are rarely enjoyable for those who canít speak the lingo, but at least the MCD version follows the anime so itís easy to understand the storyline, and once youíve memorised what the menu actions do itís absolutely playable to non-Japanese speakers with just knowledge of katakana necessary to understand what the weapons and items are.

    And... that intro... just stunning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyteknohed View Post
    Just stoking the fire...



    Wow, the colors in the MegaCD version for the most part look like ass. ...wtf and why???

    And... that intro... just stunning.
    Wait what? It's just standard fan fare. Did you mean when you first saw it BITD?

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    Just to stock another fire.I can't think of any PC Eng game with a real-time intro better than this...


    And FMV one better than this ..both full screen too .

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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    Wow, the colors in the MegaCD version for the most part look like ass. ...wtf and why???
    Yes, we know the MegaDrive palette is all muddy and washed out, but even the most partisan PCE fan canít deny the MCD version looks vastly superior with far more detail and animation.

    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    Wait what? It's just standard fan fare. Did you mean when you first saw it BITD?
    Art is very subjective. I would regard the intro to Sol-Feace as standard fanfare; it looks nice, it animates okay, but does it do anything or add any substance? Not to me it doesnít. On the other hand I find the intro to RoLW very emotive and feel a connection to it. From the stirring soundtrack to the beautiful art and animation, in just a minuteís scene it describes to me the relationship between Parn and Deedlit, it paints a picture of the world they live in, encapsulating its beauty and the foreboding adventure they are about to embark upon.

    I have heard people say things like the Mona Lisa isnít all that (to me it is however I would consider Salvator Mundi or Madonna of the Rocks to be Da Vinciís finest) and I even had a mate who once claimed Nicole Scherzinger ďisnít all thatĒ. Beauty and art are subjective after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyteknohed View Post
    Yes, we know the MegaDrive palette is all muddy and washed out, but even the most partisan PCE fan canít deny the MCD version looks vastly superior with far more detail and animation.
    That's not how it works. I've been using terms like "Mega Drive standards" to point out that whether something seems good or bad, how it is relevant to its own hardware/library.




    Art is very subjective. I would regard the intro to Sol-Feace as standard fanfare; it looks nice, it animates okay, but does it do anything or add any substance? Not to me it doesnít. On the other hand I find the intro to RoLW very emotive and feel a connection to it. From the stirring soundtrack to the beautiful art and animation, in just a minuteís scene it describes to me the relationship between Parn and Deedlit, it paints a picture of the world they live in, encapsulating its beauty and the foreboding adventure they are about to embark upon.

    I have heard people say things like the Mona Lisa isnít all that (to me it is however I would consider Salvator Mundi or Madonna of the Rocks to be Da Vinciís finest) and I even had a mate who once claimed Nicole Scherzinger ďisnít all thatĒ. Beauty and art are subjective after all.
    This is a good point, but even if this low bar impressed you, both of those Lodoss openings aren't special. A lot about art isn't subjective though, the more art goes into not-art territory the more "interpretation" comes into play.

    That Mega-CD Lodoss cinema has that scene with off-key models and the coloring in the cinema is inconsistent. But if you love it, the fmv in the game must have been very disappointing and that cinema really constrasts from the budget pixelization demo of the battles. That opening is setting up your expectations and then immediately delivers a completely different experience.


    Here is a Mega Drive/Mega-CD opening cinema with quality/consistent art, color, detail, editing, pacing, etc... which much more effectively paints a picture of the world the characters live in, encapsulating the adventures you are about to embark upon:






    If you explore the Mega Drive library some more, you'll find that muddy and washed out color is not typical.
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    Sorry, I just donít feel it. Not much more I can say other than letís agree to disagree.

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    Record of Lodoss War on the Mega CD was a complete dud when it was released. The average reader review score in Beep! MD magazine was 4.76 (out of 10), making it one of the lowest rated Mega CD games. The poorly digitized FMV and uninspired battle graphics no doubt did not help it.

    A somewhat good Mega CD RPG that often gets overlooked is Seima Densetsu 3x3 Eyes (its reader review score was 7.86, for comparison). No FMV:


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    Something interesting I remembered recently. The PC Engine can't do anywhere near the full scaling and rotation potential of the Mega-CD, but turboxray finished the title screen for the PC Engine port of Lunar he was working on and it does realtime scaling smoother than the Mega-CD version, without any dedicated chips. I wonder if the ASIC has a hard cap on the framerate it can scale at? The Mega-CD title begins at 2:11



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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Something interesting I remembered recently. The PC Engine can't do anywhere near the full scaling and rotation potential of the Mega-CD, but turboxray finished the title screen for the PC Engine port of Lunar he was working on and it does realtime scaling smoother than the Mega-CD version, without any dedicated chips. I wonder if the ASIC has a hard cap on the framerate it can scale at? The Mega-CD title begins at 2:11



    I dislike it when people need to use Tech demos (please don't think its a dig at you) . I just think it's much more fair to compare games made at the time, with what tools and development resources were around at the time. I mean, to be honest, the SEGA logo in Gunstar Heroes scales better and looks more impressive than Lunar and that's on a base MD game made back in the day.

    But then the intro and option screen to Batman Returns on the MEGA CD looks even more impressive with full scaling and rotation effects fully used, even Batman hand is scaling when pressing the options (that looked so cool)
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 03-29-2020 at 07:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I dislike it when people need to use Tech demos (please don't think its a dig at you) . I just think it's much more fair to compare games made at the time, with what tools and development resources were around at the time. I mean, to be honest, the SEGA logo in Gunstar Heroes scales better and looks more impressive than Lunar and that's on a base MD game made back in the day.

    But then the intro and option screen to Batman Returns on the MEGA CD looks even more impressive with full scaling and rotation effects fully used, even Batman hand is scaling when pressing the options (that looked so cool)
    Just wanted to note: It's not at tech demo. Just a remake I was working on years back with someone else. There's no tricks or anything. It's just straight forward scaling done in software (it's not fully optimized either).

    Gunstar Heroes isn't scaling. Matter of fact Chris Covell does the same intro trick on the PCE:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7ZIvHDbrWk


    Just to stock another fire.I can't think of any PC Eng game with a real-time intro better than this...
    Nor are you going to find any Japanese softs for MegaCD that are better than that too, save for Sega's own Popful Mail port. It's pretty simple: if a system can do FMV in software, then it can do streaming animation. FMV immediately displays the information coming, streaming animation simply has pause points where it waits for data to pool up - and does whatever it wants with that data.

    So by showing both FMV examples and then streaming animation, you're essentially showing the same thing. PCE can do it, but devs didn't (they didn't even bother compressing their normal cinema graphics). Same for FMV full screen. Take the Guliiver Boy examples, half the frame rate to that of FiFA demo, and apply the extra frame data as double the res - near full screen with much better color. Chuck II also suffers from 4 color-ness, so it's a lot less impressive. I'll take the more detailed anime look over that any day regardless of the system.

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    TA, like I said this is just something cool and dick measuring your fav consoles is not a measure of yourself.

    It also shows how superfluous the ASIC was since it wasn't necessary for pixelization effects in most cases. Fully "3D" gameplay segments are pretty much the exception. Which is why so many Mega Drive and PC Engine games feature mosaic, scaling, rotation and even polygonal, CGI and transparency effects. There was either no need for dedicated chips to pull them off or no point in rendering them in realtime.

    The Mega Drive could also do that scaling better than the Mega-CD did. That's what I was speculating, that the ASIC bandwidth has set restrictions similar to how Mode 7 does.

    When most of the pixelization effects in Mega-CD games, like Lunar's title and the mosaic effects in the Cosmic Fantasy Stories intro, only exist because they were tacked on the way SNES hardware effects were shoehorned into otherwise fine games... it proves how much of a waste the extra Mega-CD hardware was.

    Games like Mortal Kombat CD, Fatal Fury Special, Samurai Showdown and the canceled Street Fighter II port prove how much the Mega-CD lost in the trade-off.



    I dislike it when people need to use Tech demos (please don't think its a dig at you) . I just think it's much more fair to compare games made at the time, with what tools and development resources were around at the time. I mean, to be honest, the SEGA logo in Gunstar Heroes scales better and looks more impressive than Lunar and that's on a base MD game made back in the day.
    You just proved my point. If diehards like you can't even tell the difference between raster effects and hardware scaling, what's the point of realtime effects?

    But go ahead an watch Sapphire for PC Engine to see smoother scaling and rotation effects than realtime Mega-CD hardware, as well as lots more including polygonal effects so effective that many classic gaming fans still believe they are realtime. It's also as taxing a game to handle as any 16-bit 2D console game. Demonstrating how much if a waste the extra cpu in the Mega-CD was.

    Sapphire is the kind of game that would be possible on Mega-CD if it got more cart space instead of a laundry list of superfluous hardware.
    Last edited by Black_Tiger; 03-29-2020 at 11:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    Just wanted to note: It's not at tech demo. Just a remake I was working on years back with someone else. There's no tricks or anything.
    Its not so much tech demo's but more when these are being made. Its not really fair or right to compare programmes running 0ver the last few years, to what made back in the day.


    Nor are you going to find any Japanese softs for MegaCD that are better than that too, save for Sega's own Popful Mail port. It's pretty simple:
    Lunar II is far better and that's not FMV but streamed in, Yumimi Mix intro is amazing. Let's not forget Switch full-screen Real-Time intro or for FMV GameArts amazing Slipheed intro. I didn't see the PC Eng CD Rom better them tbh
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyteknohed View Post
    I disagree. I happen to really like Lodoss on the MCD and feel that the intro, CD-quality orchestral music, and anime cut-scenes really add substance to what is already a competent SF clone. I think in this regard it makes good use of the source material and the game is enriched as a result, rather than being a bland/generic SRPG.

    Iíve never really played the PCE version as RPGs in Japanese are rarely enjoyable for those who canít speak the lingo, but at least the MCD version follows the anime so itís easy to understand the storyline, and once youíve memorised what the menu actions do itís absolutely playable to non-Japanese speakers with just knowledge of katakana necessary to understand what the weapons and items are.

    And... that intro... just stunning.
    thank you for mentioning record of lodoss. I got that game for my sega cd since I was so impressed with its opening and that it follows the original anime so well.

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    In terms of being profitable, I would say yes.

    In terms of being "better" than the PCE CD, that's more dependent on software and markets.

    SegaCD hardware and software sold well in the US, much better than the TurboGrafxCD and Duo.

    In Japan though I'd say it was reversed with PCE CD leading the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Its not so much tech demo's but more when these are being made. Its not really fair or right to compare programmes running 0ver the last few years, to what made back in the day.
    In general, yes. I totally agree. But that's what I'm saying.. simply shrinking and reverse shrinking (aka Neo Geo scaling), is easy to do in general. You don't need anything more than intro to algebra, or even that at all. It is literally just a copy source->destination, and using fixed point numbers to skip pixels. I.e. my point is that I agree with you and this was perfectly capable by even mediocre devs back in the day. I just want to make that point clear.


    Lunar II is far better and that's not FMV but streamed in, Yumimi Mix intro is amazing. Let's not forget Switch full-screen Real-Time intro or for FMV GameArts amazing Slipheed intro. I didn't see the PC Eng CD Rom better them tbh
    Wait.. are you saying those are more fluid than Popful Mail or Chuck 2??? Because neither is true. Unless you consider sliding 'still' stuff around on screen as fluid animation (I don't). I see nothing 'amazing' in Yumimi Mix intro. You might need to define what constitutes 'amazing' here.


    Off topic:
    For the record, Record of Lodoss war anime has some low quality animation. I loved the series, but it's basically just a lot of sliding stills cells around. They really cut corners on the animation and IMO it shows. Story and art is fine though.

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