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Thread: Something fishy is going on with Retro Game Sales...

  1. #181
    Master of Shinobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I’d noticed that in Terminator 3, they reduced the size of a large explosion on the DVD version, from that of the Blu-Ray version to reduce the amount of moving imagery.
    Without someone who worked on the DVD actually saying it, that sounds like an unlikely reason for the change. Motion isn't generally too much of a problem on DVD as long as a DVD-9 is used, the encode is decent, and they aren't trying to pack too much on a disc. A short explosion scene shouldn't be a particular problem unless it was specifically designed to play hell with the compression. 3 Hour+ films can start to get a bit iffy (especially in very dark or light areas of the screen), as can ones with too many extras on the main disc, but T3 was under 2. If motion was a particular problem, movies such as Jaws would be rendered unwatchable because moving sea + film grain = a hell of a lot of motion. Moving water can be hard to encode. That being said, while it's much rarer now, there are some discs where I swear the encoder was set up wrong.

    IIRC Terminator 3 is a film where the framing of certain scenes may have been changed after the theatrical release. It was filmed on super 35, so there was a lot of scope to change the framing after the fact. AFAIK there's still debate over whether parts of the initial appearance of the TX were zoomed more in home releases than in the theatrical release, for example, and there was a DVD release that used the full super 35 frame at a 1.33:1 ratio rather than 2.35:1 widescreen. I believe there's also a 1.78:1 TV version, which again would have required different framing.

    Early DVD releases tended to suffer for a few reasons: Immature encoders, they used DVD-5s, and they were created from poor quality masters intended for VHS and Laserdisc. The last one seems a bit counter intuitive, but poor quality masters and laserdisc or *shudder* VHS rips are much harder to encode than clean sources. Still, despite their shortcomings, even early DVDs were theoretically much higher resolution than VHS.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raijin Z View Post
    So don't put that fucking evil on me. I never sold tech for a profit, nor paid stupid money for any of it.
    So wait.. so you've never sold anything for more than you paid for it? You're telling me that if you bought a game for $10, 15 years ago, and then decided to sell.. you'd still sell it for $10 even if it's going for $200 now? Excuse me if I don't believe that bullshit.

    If you sold or bought any retro games/hardware on ebay, for profit or not, then you definitely contributed to it. This kinda crap didn't happen on forum sales threads. Ebay made it an exposure to people looking to turn a profit. This whole reselling thing on ebay happened way before 2008. It couldn't have happened on Ebay without said product.


    Also this thing about people complaining about retro prices ever increasing.. like wtf did you think was going to happen?! Seriously. It's happened to EVERY other area of retro collection/hobby crap, with the distinct difference that hundreds of millions of gamers made up the original scene BITD, and this tightly coupled experience+nostalgia+emotion of teens/kids BITD now wanting to recapture that experience... you think there's enough retro crap to keep up with that increasing demand??? And with people holding onto the retro crap they bought, it's not going back into circulation as the same rate it's consumed. And on top of that, any time there's been a hobby interest, there's always been people looking to make a profit. Always. I definitely saw this coming, from at least 1998-2000 on ward.

  3. #183
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    All this talk about price hiking makes me wonder when LABO shit is gonna spike. Buy up your cardboard goodies now guys before it gets to be too much!
    05/05/15

  4. #184
    Master of Shinobi Mega Drive Bowlsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    So wait.. so you've never sold anything for more than you paid for it? You're telling me that if you bought a game for $10, 15 years ago, and then decided to sell.. you'd still sell it for $10 even if it's going for $200 now? Excuse me if I don't believe that bullshit.

    If you sold or bought any retro games/hardware on ebay, for profit or not, then you definitely contributed to it. This kinda crap didn't happen on forum sales threads. Ebay made it an exposure to people looking to turn a profit. This whole reselling thing on ebay happened way before 2008. It couldn't have happened on Ebay without said product.


    Also this thing about people complaining about retro prices ever increasing.. like wtf did you think was going to happen?! Seriously. It's happened to EVERY other area of retro collection/hobby crap, with the distinct difference that hundreds of millions of gamers made up the original scene BITD, and this tightly coupled experience+nostalgia+emotion of teens/kids BITD now wanting to recapture that experience... you think there's enough retro crap to keep up with that increasing demand??? And with people holding onto the retro crap they bought, it's not going back into circulation as the same rate it's consumed. And on top of that, any time there's been a hobby interest, there's always been people looking to make a profit. Always. I definitely saw this coming, from at least 1998-2000 on ward.
    You speak the absolute truth.

  5. #185
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    Without someone who worked on the DVD actually saying it, that sounds like an unlikely reason for the change. Motion isn't generally too much of a problem on DVD as long as a DVD-9 is used, the encode is decent, and they aren't trying to pack too much on a disc. A short explosion scene shouldn't be a particular problem unless it was specifically designed to play hell with the compression. 3 Hour+ films can start to get a bit iffy (especially in very dark or light areas of the screen), as can ones with too many extras on the main disc, but T3 was under 2. If motion was a particular problem, movies such as Jaws would be rendered unwatchable because moving sea + film grain = a hell of a lot of motion. Moving water can be hard to encode. That being said, while it's much rarer now, there are some discs where I swear the encoder was set up wrong.

    IIRC Terminator 3 is a film where the framing of certain scenes may have been changed after the theatrical release. It was filmed on super 35, so there was a lot of scope to change the framing after the fact. AFAIK there's still debate over whether parts of the initial appearance of the TX were zoomed more in home releases than in the theatrical release, for example, and there was a DVD release that used the full super 35 frame at a 1.33:1 ratio rather than 2.35:1 widescreen. I believe there's also a 1.78:1 TV version, which again would have required different framing.

    Early DVD releases tended to suffer for a few reasons: Immature encoders, they used DVD-5s, and they were created from poor quality masters intended for VHS and Laserdisc. The last one seems a bit counter intuitive, but poor quality masters and laserdisc or *shudder* VHS rips are much harder to encode than clean sources. Still, despite their shortcomings, even early DVDs were theoretically much higher resolution than VHS.
    Well, you could have just said dual layer DVD, instead of DVD-9.

    Yeah, when both DVD and VHS were being sold, most DVDs were only single layer and had image quality issues, including the dreaded tiling I'd mentioned.

    I went ahead and revisted that comparison. The the DVD is the theatrical release kept to it's aspect ratio, while the BR is 16x9 and letterboxed as well. I was quite surprised at how well the DVD of T3 has held up, but I will say that neither version appears to be digitally remastered from the film. There's a very small hint of grain to the image quality, as if it had a filter. The skins tones aren't that great either, but the explosions and fast paced action do no make either version look like it's struggling to handle the images thrown at it. I don't know where I thought I'd seen an explosion cut down for the DVD version, I might be thinking of another movie that I'd made a comparison to. Answer me this. Have you watched the Dark Knight on DVD. I don't know if it was the DVD player, the HDMI cable, or the cheap small television, but during the scene where the bank truck is driving under the subway tracks, everything turns into a pixelated mess once the explosions start happening.

    Here's a comparison of the two formats displaying the same explosion. They look pretty equal, though the BR version is using about 20 Mbps of data to accomplish what the DVD is doing with 6.




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    Last edited by gamevet; 07-14-2020 at 12:33 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  6. #186
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Are you sure that's the exact same frame and that it's not just an aspect ratio difference?

  7. #187
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    No, I was wrong. The explosions looked pretty much exactly alike. I'm thinking that it might have been some other movie that I did a comparison of. They both appear to have the same aspect ratio as well.

    Yes, they are the exact same frame. Look at the timer.

    The image quality is a little bit disappointing for Blu-Ray though.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  8. #188
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    I can't believe anyone is collecting VHS in the year 2020. Unlike wine, tapes do not get better with age. You are literally throwing your money away. I started digitizing my tape collections (audio and video) around 1998 and was finished by 2005. My transfers may not be studio perfect but at least the quality isn't getting worse.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Well, you could have just said dual layer DVD, instead of DVD-9.

    Yeah, when both DVD and VHS were being sold, most DVDs were only single layer and had image quality issues, including the dreaded tiling I'd mentioned.

    I went ahead and revisted that comparison. The the DVD is the theatrical release kept to it's aspect ratio, while the BR is 16x9 and letterboxed as well. I was quite surprised at how well the DVD of T3 has held up, but I will say that neither version appears to be digitally mastered from the film. There's a very small hint of grain to image, as if it had a filter. The skins tones aren't that great either, but the explosions and fast past action do no make either version look like it's struggling to handle the images thrown at it. I don't know where I thought I'd seen an explosion cut down for the DVD version, I might be thinking of another movie that I'd made a comparison to. Answer me this. Have you watched the Dark Knight on DVD. I don't know if it was the DVD player, the HDMI cable, or the small television, but during the scene where the bank truck is driving under the subway tracks, everything turns into a pixelated mess once the explosions start happening.

    Here's a comparison of the two formats displaying the same explosion. They look pretty equal, though the BR version is using about 20 Mbps of data to accomplish what the DVD is doing with 6.




    I'm pretty sure I remember mpeg-2 standard for DVD topping out at like ~10megabits. And having VBR capability, should be able to handle that peak from time to time. Unless I'm miss-remembering something.

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    It would have to be a pretty short video, because you are limited to the storage capacity of a dual layer DVD.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    It would have to be a pretty short video, because you are limited to the storage capacity of a dual layer DVD.
    That's where VBR comes in. CBR would eat through that storage at that rate, but VBR adjusts the bit rate.. (more bandwidth where it needs it). Peak is like 10mbits but average is probably around 5-6mbits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axel View Post
    I can't believe anyone is collecting VHS in the year 2020. Unlike wine, tapes do not get better with age. You are literally throwing your money away. I started digitizing my tape collections (audio and video) around 1998 and was finished by 2005. My transfers may not be studio perfect but at least the quality isn't getting worse.
    There are many thousands of movies on VHS which have never been released on a disc format. I agree that it doesn't make any sense beyond nostalgia or ludditeism to collect mainstream Hollywood movies on VHS that are available on dvd, blu or uhd, but the rabid movie collectors (particularly the horror hounds) collect on all formats and understand which movies are VHS exclusive. And the resale prices of those movies generally reflect that. Also, the original VHS box art is often an important factor to collectors, particularly the big box releases of the 80s. When modern boutique labels that release old cult movies that were long out of print, they often use the VHS box art.

    I will say that an S-VHS deck connected to an older plasma or LCD screen via s-video cable produces a quality picture close to DVD. I wouldn't want to watch one on a standard VHS deck via composite on a brand new flat panel tv though. From 05 to 2012 or so, it wasn't uncommon for hdtvs to have many video connections on the back, including s-video. Those tvs tend to screen VHS tapes pretty well. The new tvs are all hdmi only for the most part though, with only a single shared component/composite connection. They're just not built for older formats.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by profholt82 View Post
    There are many thousands of movies on VHS which have never been released on a disc format. I agree that it doesn't make any sense beyond nostalgia or ludditeism to collect mainstream Hollywood movies on VHS that are available on dvd, blu or uhd, but the rabid movie collectors (particularly the horror hounds) collect on all formats and understand which movies are VHS exclusive. And the resale prices of those movies generally reflect that. Also, the original VHS box art is often an important factor to collectors, particularly the big box releases of the 80s. When modern boutique labels that release old cult movies that were long out of print, they often use the VHS box art.

    I will say that an S-VHS deck connected to an older plasma or LCD screen via s-video cable produces a quality picture close to DVD. I wouldn't want to watch one on a standard VHS deck via composite on a brand new flat panel tv though. From 05 to 2012 or so, it wasn't uncommon for hdtvs to have many video connections on the back, including s-video. Those tvs tend to screen VHS tapes pretty well. The new tvs are all hdmi only for the most part though, with only a single shared component/composite connection. They're just not built for older formats.
    That's what I'm saying. If you've got something that was VHS only then you should be digitizing it yesterday. Although now a lot of the older B movies that were harder to find are up on YouTube or archive.org so they won't disappear forever. I agree the quality can be OK if you have good equipment but tapes are well past their expected shelf life. I never thought about the box art but I guess I can see where people might like that. Although if I wanted an older format just for the artwork it would be Laserdiscs hands down, nothing else has come close.

  14. #194
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    I need a capture device that can handle the low resolution of VHS. It'd be nice to have one of the dual deck players, where you can save your VHS tapes to DVD.

    I have a VHS tape of Star Trek 25th Anniversary Special, that was never released on DVD. This guy is selling tranfered copies on DVD. http://www.sell.com/2KL85K There's also a Laser Disc version that was an official release https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001AVNCLC...=UTF8&qid=&sr=


    I got a bunch of video game VHS promotional tapes, from back in the day. All you had to do was register something with Nintendo or whatever company, and they'd send you promotional items. I have a really cool Capcom promo tape (a fighting game for PlayStation) somewhere, but I couldn't find it.


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    Last edited by gamevet; 07-14-2020 at 12:15 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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    I was rearranging my media in the lower area of our large entertainment center, when I found my Queensryche Video Mindcrime tape. I then went to put it in its proper case, where I found the Capcom promotional tape for Star Gladiator. The game looked pretty cool at the time.





    This Queensryche video was never officially released as a stand alone DVD. I just found out that it is included in an Operation Mindcrime CD boxed set, which I am going to get.


    I don't have an S-Video VCR, but what I have is a 6 head Daewoo. (I really miss my old Fischer 4 Head Hi-Fi VCR.) The picture looks pretty good on the CRT, but the Sony Hi-Scan CRT set doesn't always play too friendly with the noisy signal of composite video. Still decent, and what is on youtune looks like it was over-filtered to the point that it's slightly blurry.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



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