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Thread: The Making of Super Castlevania IV and Castlevania Bloodlines/The New Generation.

  1. #16
    WCPO Agent Orchid87's Avatar
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    Rondo is the epitome of overrated. It's only redeeming factor is the replayability.
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  2. #17
    Outrunner Vludi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid87 View Post
    Does that make it a better game though? CV1 is not exactly the golden standard of action platformers and all the improvements CV4 brought to the table are welcome.
    Sorry but your argument consistency is terrible lol. You said "Castlevania was never a fast game" as an argument to CV4 being better due to it being (supposedly) closer to the older games, I refuted that and now you aren't making sense. Anyway I think CV1 and Bloodlines are both better games than 4, good design, tight action, adequate length etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid87 View Post
    I'm trying to be objective. Genesis has got a better Contra game, SNES has got a better CV game.
    I actually like 3 better than Hard corps despite its shortcomings (one extra side-scroller stage would've been really nice), console fanboyism does little to me at this point.
    Last edited by Vludi; 05-27-2020 at 05:27 PM.

  3. #18
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingRoad Rasher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid87 View Post
    Rondo is the epitome of overrated. It's only redeeming factor is the replayability.
    I mean you're entitled to an unpopular opinion, but should probably back it up with something substantial - because simply stating "only redeeming factor" being replayability is pretty weak. I would say that CV4 is thee most overrated game in the series. Mostly because of Nintendo's popularity specular retro gamers. CV4, while pretty looking, it's straight up NES era animation. Rondo has like 10x the amount of animation.. on everything, along with tighter controls, better balance (gameplay mechanics, difficulty curve, etc). Rondo's only downfall is it's graphic IMO - it's mixed; some stuff is great, and some stuff is simpler looking.. all of it with an average-at-best color usage for the hardware. Even then, the downside is pretty minimal.

  4. #19
    WCPO Agent Orchid87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vludi View Post
    You said "Castlevania was never a fast game" as an argument to CV4 being better due to it being (supposedly) closer to the older games
    Now that's a stretch. My point is that CV as a series is not known for a fast gameplay and one single game being faster than others does not make it better. Sorry that you've completely missed that. That argument about CV4 being slower is as stupid as arguing that all Mario games are fundamentally worse than Sonic games because of their slower gameplay. And I don't even like Mario. Staying close to the roots is good but improvements are welcome. Speed is not an improvement but a different flavour. CV4 has multi directional whip control and better jump control, compared to both CV1 and Rondo (which was done a more old school way). I don't remember jumps in Bloodlines, don't own a cart to check, but IIRC they were nice too.
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  5. #20
    Hero of Algol
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    I'll just leave this here (this guy used to post here years ago):
    Hot damn is Super Castlevania IV overrated

    Let me preface this by saying that I didn't really grow up with the series, being a sega kid and all. I had Castlevania I for DOS, and liked it, but it was nowhere near my favorite game. Years later, after the series had already been changed into a metroid-vania, I picked up Bloodlines and played it, and thought it was pretty fun. Thats when I began noticing the hype surrounding two particular titles in the series: Rondo of Blood, and Castlevania IV. The more hardcore crowd seemed to claim Rondo of Blood was better, while virtually everyone else (read: those who didn't even know what a PC Engine was) claimed Super Castlevania IV was the best in the series.

    About 10 years ago, I picked up Rondo of blood, after hearing for ages about how great it was. And goddamn did it blow me away. It took everything I liked about Castlevania I and Bloodlines and just amped it up to 11. One of the greatest games I've ever played.

    But what of Castlevania IV? For one reason or another, I just never got around to picking it up. Over the years, as Rondo of Blood became less obscure, I'd see people who had played Castlevania IV before Rondo of Blood hold on to their claim that it was the best in the series, and that piqued my interest. This christmas, I finally got the game, and I can't express what a complete let down it is.

    I'll stop short of saying it's outright a bad game - it's not. It's perfectly playable, and there is nothing technically wrong with it. At least it's not broken. But it is lifeless as hell. This looks, sounds, and feels absolutely nothing like castlevania. It feels more like a completely unrelated game which uses the castlevania theme. The graphics are ugly - I don't mean "oh man later SNES games are so much better" ugly, I mean "castlevania III had a much more appealing art style" ugly. In fact, in just about every aspect, the NES-only Castlevania III is a much better game. I repeatedly hear people praise the game for it's "8-direction" whip, but the game is such a cake walk anyways that it's useless. Speaking of difficulty, this game is the easiest castlevania I've ever played. I popped this game into my SNES, having never played it before in my life, and an hour and a half later, I had finished it, without ever getting a game over. On my first damn try. Admittedly the second half of the game, the part which appears to be a castlevania I remake, is a bit more difficult, but it never approaches the difficulty of Bloodlines, let alone Rondo or Castlevania III.

    The most disappointing aspect has to be the music. Castlevania games have killer synth-driven soundtracks... this game sounds like bad midi impersonations of public domain "scary" music. It's all the most boring organ music I've ever heard - the main theme from Columns blows all this crap away. The signature theme remixes at the end are pretty alright, but perhaps I was spoiled by the wailing synth rock renditions that Rondo put out, because I'm of the opinion that those are light years better.

    The level design is really, really poor. Again, ignoring how much better Rondo was with it's multiple paths through each level, this is the blandest level design in any castlevania game I've played. Enemies seem like they're just there, with no rhyme or reason. Platforms never present a challenge, and a large porition of the game feels like I'm just trudging slowly in 1 direction. Bloodlines had wicked stage layouts, Castlevania IV does not.

    I can't believe people get down on their knees and blow this game, yet bitch up and down about Sonic 4's changes. For all the complaints people levy about that particular game, they apply just as much to this game - it makes no attempt to be like any of the other games in the series - aestheticly, audibly, or gameplay-wise. I can only conclude that the hype for this game is a combination of nintendo fanboyism, nostalgia, and group think. What a disappointment.
    https://forums.penny-arcade.com/disc...a-iv-overrated

  6. #21
    Outrunner Vludi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid87 View Post
    Now that's a stretch. My point is that CV as a series is not known for a fast gameplay and one single game being faster than others does not make it better. Sorry that you've completely missed that. That argument about CV4 being slower is as stupid as arguing that all Mario games are fundamentally worse than Sonic games because of their slower gameplay. And I don't even like Mario. Staying close to the roots is good but improvements are welcome. Speed is not an improvement but a different flavour. CV4 has multi directional whip control and better jump control, compared to both CV1 and Rondo (which was done a more old school way). I don't remember jumps in Bloodlines, don't own a cart to check, but IIRC they were nice too.
    I don't think Bloodlines is a super fast game compred to the others on the series, it basically works on the fundamentals of CV1 (which are totally fine) with some tweaks. 4 feels "slow" for a lot of people because it's loosely designed, they didn't do a good job adequating the level and enemy design to the new features of the game, leaving a boring, samey and undemanding combat where using all you resources to win barely matter anymore. New features mean nothing if you don't go all out with them.

  7. #22
    WCPO Agent Orchid87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vludi View Post
    I don't think Bloodlines is a super fast game compred to the others on the series, it basically works on the fundamentals of CV1 (which are totally fine) with some tweaks. 4 feels "slow" for a lot of people because it's loosely designed, they didn't do a good job adequating the level and enemy design to the new features of the game, leaving a boring, samey and undemanding combat where using all you resources to win barely matter anymore. New features mean nothing if you don't go all out with them.
    Ok, I get your point now. CV4 might feel easy indeed. But it still feels damn good to play. And the brooding atmosphere provided by both visual and audio design was unprecedent for a 1991 console game.
    Last edited by Orchid87; 05-28-2020 at 04:47 AM.
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  8. #23
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    OK I'm probably derailing this but decided to recheck how the whip worked in Bloodlines just in case (it seems diagonal whipping is only when jumping, whelp) and uh, can you even hit this skull?


  9. #24
    Master of Shinobi Mega Drive Bowlsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    The game sucks, sorry to say that. And I'm not alone, there's a few other guys (maybe not active anymore) in the forum with the same opinion.
    Speed is not the only problem, no. The controls are awful, clumsy to the max. I also think there's a certain lag to them, probably a few frames at least in some of the screens.
    Pacing is also an issue. There are many, many problems in my view.

    I know there's this general consensus, especially among youtubers nowadays, that this one of the best games ever but to be very honest it's a rather mediocre game with severe issues IMO.
    The X68000's Castlevania is also a very mediocre game just to put things in perspective here.
    Bloodlines is good but far from great and severely flawed. Artwork is iffy at best and shitty in many aspects.

    I think Rondo of Blood is leagues better than all those three and truly a great game. PS1's Symphony of the Night is great too but art-wise I still prefer Rondo of Blood.
    OK fine, but I don't think it's fair at all to compare the likes of Bloodlines and Super Castlevania IV to the later 'Metroidvania' style Castlevania games like Symphony of the Night. I mean they are totally different games in style, pacing, gameplay...in fact the only thing they share in common is the Castlevania name and storyline.

  10. #25
    Master of Shinobi Pyron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    I'll just leave this here (this guy used to post here years ago):
    I think this video resumes what i always said here long time ago when im doing bloodlines hack...



    Im happy thats Joe and others guys give a second chance to the game, lot of my friends after play it nowadays changed their opionos and puts it above SC4,
    also I agreed thats the soundtrack is very overhated, 4 tunes is really good, the rest of them is very boring..
    they tried do something atmospheric but dosent works well in all stages.

    A good aspect is thats the BGs is very detailed and a good variation between them...

    but what piss me off... is that you character looks much more bigger and tham everything else..
    is like a Gulliver on the land of giants, you is much bigger than everybody else.. just some bosses can stands against you..

    Visit my youtube channel Pyron's Lair
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  11. #26
    Hero of Algol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    OK fine, but I don't think it's fair at all to compare the likes of Bloodlines and Super Castlevania IV to the later 'Metroidvania' style Castlevania games like Symphony of the Night. I mean they are totally different games in style, pacing, gameplay...in fact the only thing they share in common is the Castlevania name and storyline.
    I was really just citing the two entries I think are great, I didn't really compare them in gameplay; only compared Rondo's art to Symphony's.

  12. #27
    Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    I actually appreciate the dreary style of SCV4. It has this nice moody atmosphere which was not something you could have on the 8 bit generation and was pretty rare on the MD/PCE. Bloodlines and Rondo play better though.

  13. #28
    Outrunner Vludi's Avatar
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    CV4 has an interesting style and looks nice for the most part, but the sprite animation is probably the weakest for 16-bits Castlevanias.

  14. #29
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    OK fine, but I don't think it's fair at all to compare the likes of Bloodlines and Super Castlevania IV to the later 'Metroidvania' style Castlevania games like Symphony of the Night. I mean they are totally different games in style, pacing, gameplay...in fact the only thing they share in common is the Castlevania name and storyline.
    SotN is made in the visual, gameplay and structural style of Rondo of Blood and the "Metroidvanias" that followed targeted that as well. You literally begin SotM playing the same character in a stage from Rondo.

    Alucard is just another playable character like Maria or the different characters in III and Bloodlines. The SitN enemies still behave in the Rondo style and many are carried over. It's similar to Wonderboy III/MWII playing the same as Monsterland, only the play areas are strung together "Metroidvania" style. Except that it also has an all new visual style, where as SotN continues with Rondo style visuals and proportions.

    Not only is Rondo the contemporary of IV and Bloodlines, it was also famous enough bitd outside of Japan for Konami to mention it on the box of the SNES demake.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orchid87 View Post
    Rondo is the epitome of overrated. It's only redeeming factor is the replayability.
    I agree , even the music was a bit of an letdown. Didn't think much of Castlevaina on the MD either. The SNES version is still to this day Incredible mind
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