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Thread: Software vs. Hardware Emulation

  1. #16
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    Note that modern screens seem to have more lag than CRTs due to all the processing they do on the image (・_・) Depending how lucky you can get with fiddling with settings it may go low enough as to not matter, but if you're unlucky it's gonna be a pain. And this lag is added on top of whatever the emulator and the game are already doing.

    Though the irony here is that even though FPGA implementations in theory shouldn't have any worse lag than a real console aside from the screen, pushing the emulation a few frames ahead and using rollback as needed you can actually end up with negative lag (compensating for both the screen and potentially any lag added by the game itself), and in this case software emulation is definitely more attractive. Wasn't there a huge deal about RetroArch having support for this? (the "run ahead" stuff)

  2. #17
    Mega Driven Raging in the Streets cleeg's Avatar
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    Negative lag? Wouldn't that require ONE POINT TWENTY ONE JIGGAWATTS!?

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    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Yeah, the input lag issue with software emulation has partially been solved with run-ahead. Here's a demonstration for BSNES and the explanation of it:



    https://byuu.net/input/run-ahead/

    One issue is that it requires a hefty CPU since (I think?) it's basically like running multiple instances of the emulator at once.

    Another issue is that, at least if you're a purist, you don't want to exceed the built-in input lag of the game, which is possible if you use too much run-ahead. So you have to determine the original lag of the game and set the run-ahead accordingly.

    If you're a less technically oriented user, then it's probably too much to figure out all of this, and that's the kind of person Analogue is appealing to with their "No emulation!" marketing.

  4. #19
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    This post may age badly but so far I have not seen a tweet this month that Polymega had to delay it. They did send one out they are back on schedule to released this November and I think final review units were sent out. If it actually released this time that will be my first console to play old games not the real thing. Reviews been good and watched several streams. Everything seems to work perfectly fine. They promise 9000+ games are supported so far. So we shall see how this goes next month.

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  5. #20
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleeg View Post
    I'm surprised input lag hasn't come up yet; do I have it right that hardware emulation has less of it? Anyway, one point I'd like to make about lag is that many people just can't seem to get into emulation because of it but I wonder how big a deal it really is? It always puts me in mind of those audiophile types who claim they can spot different speaker cables, I'd love to rewire their hifis with the cheapest cables while they're out and and ask them in six months' time how they're enjoying their music: They wouldn't notice a thing!

    You could probably swap a given console's internals for an emulation box and get the same results for these extreme lagger types! Not saying it's not an issue, but in real terms, how much of an issue can it actually be, anyone have any experiences? I personally don't notice the difference on any emulation setup I've tried.
    I noticed it with Street Fighter II on the SNES Classic. I was using those wireless control pads though.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  6. #21
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
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    From what I recall some of the clues in Punch Out become completely useless on a modern screen too because there's so little time to react that the lag added by the screen pushes it beyond human reaction time, so you'll need to rely on memorization (to be fair those clues are too tight to be usable anyway, it's bullshit >_>). Run ahead presumably should be able to help with this a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    One issue is that it requires a hefty CPU since (I think?) it's basically like running multiple instances of the emulator at once.
    No, you only need one instance, it's just that whenever the button input changes it needs to run multiple frames at once instead of just one (which can feel a bit jerky if the hardware isn't up to it). If you can do fastforward fine then this shouldn't be much of an issue. The memory taken up by the savestates can be seen as a problem but it's just a few frames (while the usual "rewind" feature is several seconds worth of savestating in RAM, so if that works then run ahead will work too).

    On a random note it seems that RetroArch's run ahead is only a single frame:
    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/...mment-35189421
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Orland
    I don't think it's "rolling back" in quite the way you describe. As Dwedit describes it in the libretro thread, here's the sequence for every frame:

    * Run one frame without outputting the video or sound
    * Save State
    * Run one frame normally
    * Load State

    So you see the second frame (to make things look instant), THEN it rolls back to the first frame (to revert back to "real" timing/logic). Then the same things happens the next frame -- jump ahead two, display frame, roll back one.

    I'll admit it makes my brain hurt a little to think about.
    EDIT: in hindsight, that RetroArch approach can probably be a reasonable trade-off if you're tight on memory but have excess CPU power (RetroArch does it with only one frame ahead but in theory should work for as many frames ahead as you want in the third step)

  7. #22
    Lord of the Obscure Wildside Expert LordGeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    This post may age badly but so far I have not seen a tweet this month that Polymega had to delay it. They did send one out they are back on schedule to released this November and I think final review units were sent out. If it actually released this time that will be my first console to play old games not the real thing. Reviews been good and watched several streams. Everything seems to work perfectly fine. They promise 9000+ games are supported so far. So we shall see how this goes next month.
    I did receive an e-mail two weeks ago about my Polymega pre-order from two years ago, saying that it "will be arriving soon", so I think it's fair to say that the machine is finally ready to start shipping out to the general public next month, as planned. While there does seem to be a general lack of interest from some more notable names online, like Pat Contri or even the My Life in Gaming guys, I think there is great potential in what the machine can offer, especially once they open up the store function that's planned, which is the main reason why you can't simply sideload roms into this machine. If the Polymega can actually start offering actual retro games as digital downloads (&, unlike Nintendo's VC, these just have to be the same roms & ISOs that the Polymega itself rips for use from the actual media), then that'll be a big boon for it (especially if they can then start getting bigger publishers on board), one that helps give it an edge & reason for existing, which some feel it lacks.

    Coincidentally, that last feeling tends to come from people who heap praise on anything FPGA (i.e. "it's software emulation, so who cares?"), so take that as you will.

  8. #23
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordGeo View Post
    I did receive an e-mail two weeks ago about my Polymega pre-order from two years ago, saying that it "will be arriving soon", so I think it's fair to say that the machine is finally ready to start shipping out to the general public next month, as planned. While there does seem to be a general lack of interest from some more notable names online, like Pat Contri or even the My Life in Gaming guys, I think there is great potential in what the machine can offer, especially once they open up the store function that's planned, which is the main reason why you can't simply sideload roms into this machine. If the Polymega can actually start offering actual retro games as digital downloads (&, unlike Nintendo's VC, these just have to be the same roms & ISOs that the Polymega itself rips for use from the actual media), then that'll be a big boon for it (especially if they can then start getting bigger publishers on board), one that helps give it an edge & reason for existing, which some feel it lacks.

    Coincidentally, that last feeling tends to come from people who heap praise on anything FPGA (i.e. "it's software emulation, so who cares?"), so take that as you will.
    Nope. Delayed again. At this point just ask for your money back. It's a scam. No two ways about it.

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  9. #24
    Lord of the Obscure Wildside Expert LordGeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    Nope. Delayed again. At this point just ask for your money back. It's a scam. No two ways about it.
    A scam doesn't resulted in actual units being produced & shipped to numerous beta testers, with many different videos & articles having been produced & written about it in the past few months. The machine does actually exist at this point, so it's no Coleco Chameleon or Intellivision Amico, and it's been shown to do exactly what it purports to do, so it's no Atari VCS. Look, I get that Walmart looks to have screwed Playmaji over in some fashion, which in turn messed up their production schedule, but I also don't give a crap about no-name wannabe YouTubers who have barely more subscribers than me (& I almost never make videos) who only make videos so as to trash the machine & the company behind it. I'm in real rush for the machine to come out, so I'd appreciate it if you don't tell me how to feel or how to act. I know that my feelings don't exactly match with everyone, but I don't try to talk for anyone other than myself, thank you very much.

  10. #25
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordGeo View Post
    A scam doesn't resulted in actual units being produced & shipped to numerous beta testers, with many different videos & articles having been produced & written about it in the past few months. The machine does actually exist at this point, so it's no Coleco Chameleon or Intellivision Amico, and it's been shown to do exactly what it purports to do, so it's no Atari VCS. Look, I get that Walmart looks to have screwed Playmaji over in some fashion, which in turn messed up their production schedule, but I also don't give a crap about no-name wannabe YouTubers who have barely more subscribers than me (& I almost never make videos) who only make videos so as to trash the machine & the company behind it. I'm in real rush for the machine to come out, so I'd appreciate it if you don't tell me how to feel or how to act. I know that my feelings don't exactly match with everyone, but I don't try to talk for anyone other than myself, thank you very much.
    It was always a scam as they could never deliver what they asked for money for before it was produced.

    Their initial phantom product was marketed as being the opposite of what has been shipped to a handful of "influencers" in order to scam further "investors".

    They made a big deal about why emulation was garbage and that their innovative "hybrid" justified the original outrageous asking prices.

    If you preordered a Sega Genesis in 1989 and they shipped you an Atari VCS 8 years later, you were scammed.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

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