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Thread: Sonic 3 + Michael Jackson?!

  1. #91
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superandroidtron View Post
    If Michael Jackson was so disappointed with the Genesis's sound system, how did Moon Walker ever happen?
    Moon Walker is using SMPS 68K, which if I recall is better than the Z80 version at samples. Also if I recall the samples halted the music in Moon Walker like most early Genesis games did, so the timing errors of playing FM+PSG and samples were simply not present and you hear the full sample in all its ~4-bit glory without interruption. So the music, which has no samples built in aside from short drums if I recall, is much higher fidelity than Sonic 3's laryngitis-ridden-sample soundtrack. The best Sonic 3 tunes do not feature samples prominently.

    That's just my list of guesses, and unlike most forum goers I will change my view if facts surface.
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I kind of doubt he was just a pop singer whose only real contributions to his own music was singing into a microphone. Lots of his songs are credited solely to Jackson, with no coauthor. Besides, one of his stated reasons for moving to a different record label to make Off the Wall was for creative control.
    He definitely was commanding when it came to writing, arranging and producing songs / albums - as far instrumentality, it wasn't uncommon to job out to other musicians outside a record label - Best example would be "Beat It"; if you look up the talent behind the song it's practically Toto with Eddie Van Halen on solo (no rhyme intended, and Toto rocks). Lukather practically orchestrated the majority of the guitar licks, however he is only credited as performing such - so whatever creative talent happens consequently becomes Jackson's / Epic's property and additionally with Halen as he was also not on the same label, he was therefore restricted from some accolades. In either scenario, I'm sure the hired help was well subsidized and it preserved Jackson as being the musical architect.

    In regards to the Sonic 3 falling out - it's all about saving face. Jackson / his anonymous entourage will blame the Genesis with having lousy audio capabilities and compromising Jackson's brilliance in contest against Sega's claim to part with Jackson on the grounds of his molestation charges and therefore sending him on his future endeavors. I'd assume the truth is somewhere in between the rumored squabbling. No performer is going to accept a boot from a video game company in midst of said accusations as well as no video game company would submit to a renowned musical figure ditching their product on the basis that it is inadequate. It's all about passing blame and looking good to each's respective audience to protect business.

    Lastly, Prince was better than Michael Jackson.

  3. #93
    The Cat in the Hat Shining Hero NeoVamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superandroidtron View Post
    If Michael Jackson was so disappointed with the Genesis's sound system, how did Moon Walker ever happen?

    Well someone else did Moonwalker, and Michael probably giggled at that thinking to himself :
    "I could do much better, but these guys aren't musicians like me"
    then when that time came for him to do it he found out that it takes a skilled person to do something special with such limitations.

    Michael might have been a great musician but that's also because he was surrounded by the best people and best equipment,
    and that's why he couldn't deal with the limited Genesis sound, because the guy always got what he wanted to make his music.
    In a way he was a child spoiled for choice.

    So it's no wonder he walked away, there was no love for the Genesis, just his desire to experience the best that the world had to offer.

    And that's what the Genesis was during Moonwalker, the best! the Arcade experience at home, for everybody!

    by 93 the Genesis wasn't the best anymore, so why bother?

  4. #94
    5200 controllers repaired Master of Shinobi tz101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lync View Post
    In either scenario, I'm sure the hired help was well subsidized and it preserved Jackson as being the musical architect.
    Which was a blatant lie in either of your examples. Just goes to strengthen my case. Simply because he was commanding did not a composer make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tz101 View Post
    Which was a blatant lie in either of your examples. Just goes to strengthen my case. Simply because he was commanding did not a composer make.
    Perhaps my example was a bit meandering, but I'm really in quite agreeance with you / others that Jackson was not nearly as brilliant a composer as his label ensured he'd be portrayed as; that relates to any profession though really, I remember a quote about Charles Eames that one of his former associates quoted saying, “I was exploited, but I was exploited by a proper master".

    As far as the hired talent being well subsidized, I don't have any validity in saying that - but it was Steve Lukather, he probably wasn't desperate for work:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lync View Post
    In regards to the Sonic 3 falling out - it's all about saving face. Jackson / his anonymous entourage will blame the Genesis with having lousy audio capabilities and compromising Jackson's brilliance in contest against Sega's claim to part with Jackson on the grounds of his molestation charges and therefore sending him on his future endeavors. I'd assume the truth is somewhere in between the rumored squabbling. No performer is going to accept a boot from a video game company in midst of said accusations as well as no video game company would submit to a renowned musical figure ditching their product on the basis that it is inadequate. It's all about passing blame and looking good to each's respective audience to protect business.
    You are spot on with this analogy. I thought exactly the same when I read both accounts, that MJ ditched due to poor sound quality and that Sega ditched due to upcoming legal allegations. Spin goes myriad ways in the corporate world, and saving face is what it is all about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Moon Walker is using SMPS 68K, which if I recall is better than the Z80 version at samples. Also if I recall the samples halted the music in Moon Walker like most early Genesis games did, so the timing errors of playing FM+PSG and samples were simply not present and you hear the full sample in all its ~4-bit glory without interruption. So the music, which has no samples built in aside from short drums if I recall, is much higher fidelity than Sonic 3's laryngitis-ridden-sample soundtrack. The best Sonic 3 tunes do not feature samples prominently.

    That's just my list of guesses, and unlike most forum goers I will change my view if facts surface.
    The quality of Moonwalker's samples is not above average for SMPS Z80 or SMPS68k fare, and not really better than what Sonic 3 & Knuckles does.

    Also, halting music wouldn't help SMPS68k or any 68k sound engine (save maybe horribly coded ones like Capcom's), and was only done out of necessity on some early/primitive Z80 drivers (like pre-SMPS Z80) with mutually exclusive music and PCM code. However, several later games intentionally cut out (or duck) music when playing certain samples, especially speech. (Panorama Cotton comes to mind -it uses PCM drums in the music, but cuts music when playing speech)


    I also didn't get the impression the supposed "disappointment" with the sound system was related to PCM anyway, but in general musical synthesis ability. (which, in any case, I don't really buy on the surface of it) There may be more complex reasons for things, but I doubt the sound system was the make or break part of it. And that's even IF MJ did indeed directly collaborate for Sonic 3, and IF he's the one who decided to omit the credit.



    Quote Originally Posted by tz101 View Post
    You are spot on with this analogy. I thought exactly the same when I read both accounts, that MJ ditched due to poor sound quality and that Sega ditched due to upcoming legal allegations. Spin goes myriad ways in the corporate world, and saving face is what it is all about.
    For all we know (again assuming he WAS directly involved on an official basis), the actual cause for the removal was for weird management/bureacratic reasons (on both sizes) over things like not agreeing on negotiation terms or compromise, etc, and that other stuff was just excuses after the fact to save face and come up with more publically legitimate excuses. (how many REAL reasons for corporate decisions would normal people balk at?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    (Panorama Cotton comes to mind -it uses PCM drums in the music, but cuts music when playing speech)
    Just thought I'd mention that Panorama Cotton has a feature that allows voices to be played without cutting the music out. Some games did that on purpose. Technosoft games for example do, but whether it is done on purpose I don't know. Puyo Puyo however, I think did do it due to limitation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raijin View Post
    Just thought I'd mention that Panorama Cotton has a feature that allows voices to be played without cutting the music out. Some games did that on purpose. Technosoft games for example do, but whether it is done on purpose I don't know. Puyo Puyo however, I think did do it due to limitation.
    Technosoft games do it because of sound driver limitations. That's why all their drums are made using FM and PSG instead of samples.

  10. #100
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    I actually like this one.

  11. #101
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    I like it far more than the tune in Sonic3, mainly because of the infinitely better percussion.
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    Awesome song. - Funny enough as this is irrefutable proof that Sonic 3 was scored by MJ as the composer of this tune was working with MJ at the time.
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    I think its proof that Brad Buxer worked on Sonic 3, not necessarily MJ.


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  14. #104
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    From what I've read by quickly googleing the guy was that he was working with MJ at that time so that's why this song was left intact in the released version (the soundtrack was partially rewritten before release due to the accusations against MJ as I understand it)
    The Mega Drive was far inferior to the NES in terms of diffusion rate and sales in the Japanese market, though there were ardent Sega users. But in the US and Europe, we knew Sega could challenge Nintendo. We aimed at dominating those markets, hiring experienced staff for our overseas department in Japan, and revitalising Sega of America and the ailing Virgin group in Europe.

    Then we set about developing killer games.

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    Or MJ hated the sound of the Genesis, and dropped out of working on it.

    That seems to be the other theory running around at this point.


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