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Thread: Paprium: The Official Thread Mk 2

  1. #13276
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingSports Talker peido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pain for Fun View Post
    Is there a thread yet here on Sega-16 forum for all the Sega - Genesis / Mega Drive consoles models & revisions that are & are not compatible with Paprium? We need a list of models, revisions, & serial numbers so we can try to figure out what the problem really is with console compatibility.

    I am a new member & can not make a new thread myself or I would do so. By the way hello my fellow Genesis / Mega Drive console fans & I am glad I can finally talk with all the awesome people here on this forum.
    Here is the list:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    The list got lost with the merge of the threads
    Last edited by peido; 01-15-2021 at 08:39 AM.

  2. #13277
    Road Rasher paulojr_mam's Avatar
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    @Barone better agree to disagree. Cause I can't see it any other way. Yes, people might replay games because they like the games, but that to me isn't replayability. Having good gameplay and some randomized elements is the bare minimum of what a game has to offer even for a first play. Would you say that a game that has good gameplay + randomized elements + extra content doesn't have more replayability than a game that only has good gameplay and randomized elements? Maybe there could be said to be a spectrum of replayability.

    But I think I value more extra content. You can replay any game any amount of times you want. But only some games offer you something new on playthroughs. And that is what's replay value to me. When you experience a game for the first time it's something different. And replayability tries to give you more of something similar to that through content that will be new and fresh to you, making a second or third playthrough feel fresh again, or at least fresher. So in my view you can only have some playthroughs of actual replayability. You can change the difficulty, like you said, but with the same enemies and locations it doesn't feel fresh. A rearrangement of elements already does a lot (like Resident Evil Director's Cut arrange mode). But as far as I know not even that SoR (or Paprium) does, all enemies are in the same locations. There's no surprise, no sense that it's something brand new. No repeat of the first playthrough experience.

    I'll probably get too philosophical now. I understand how my concept can be debatable. If you put all of Paprium's content in a single linear playthrough it would be one long session with no replays. And experiencing new content can be seen as campaigning a game and clearing it and not as 'replay'. Obviously 'replay' can be stated to refer to a 'play' of the 'same thing' and since new content is a 'different' thing it can't be considered replay. For some reason we humans are used to things with a beginning, middle and end, and reset our mindsets when that end is achieved. That said, a game with more content has, well, more content. Which means that on repeated playthrough you can alternate your experiences and can forget a little detail here, another there, so those details will feel fresh for you again.
    Last edited by paulojr_mam; 01-15-2021 at 09:21 AM.
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  3. #13278
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
    @Barone better agree to disagree. Cause I can't see it any other way. Yes, people might replay games because they like the games, but that to me isn't replayability. Having good gameplay and some randomized elements is the bare minimum of what a game has to offer even for a first play. Would you say that a game that has good gameplay + randomized elements + extra content doesn't have more replayability than a game that only has good gameplay and randomized elements? Maybe there could be said to be a spectrum of replayability.

    But I think I value more extra content. You can replay any game any amount of times you want. But only some games offer you something new on playthroughs. And that is what's replay value to me. When you experience a game for the first time it's something different. And replayability tries to give you more of something similar to that through content that will be new and fresh to you, making a second or third playthrough feel fresh again, or at least fresher. So in my view you can only have some playthroughs of actual replayability. You can change the difficulty, like you said, but with the same enemies and locations it doesn't feel fresh. A rearrangement of elements already does a lot (like Resident Evil Director's Cut arrange mode). But as far as I know not even that SoR (or Paprium) does, all enemies are in the same locations. There's no surprise, no sense that it's something brand new. No repeat of the first playthrough experience.

    I'll probably get too philosophical now. I understand how my concept can be debatable. If you put all of Paprium's content in a single linear playthrough it would be one long session with no replays. And experiencing new content can be seen as campaigning a game and clearing it and not as 'replay'. Obviously 'replay' can be stated to refer to a 'play' of the 'same thing' and since new content is a 'different' thing it can't be considered replay. For some reason we humans are used to things with a beginning, middle and end, and reset our mindsets when that end is achieved. That said, a game with more content has, well, more content. Which means that on repeated playthrough you can alternate your experiences and can forget a little detail here, another there, so those details will feel fresh for you again.
    So you would say Tetris has no replayability?

  4. #13279
    Outrunner Vludi's Avatar
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    SoR2 has better replayability than Paprium for the simple reason that it takes a lot more time to learn its mechanics, has way more challenging difficulty settings and the character variety is infinitely better encouraging different playstyles, those are the only kind of things that matter when talking about replayability in beat em ups, the subsantial content rather than just quantity for the sake of quantity. My playtime in Fight 'n rage wouldn't be half as much if it wasn't for the difficulty + turbo settings, the rest is nice but mostly fluff.
    I don't get what's so special about Paprium's extra levels, they recycle mostly the same enemies and braindead combat only with different backgrounds, so it's not "fresh" at all.
    Last edited by Vludi; 01-15-2021 at 11:28 AM.

  5. #13280
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
    That said, a game with more content has, well, more content. Which means that on repeated playthrough you can alternate your experiences and can forget a little detail here, another there, so those details will feel fresh for you again.
    But the content of any game works around the gameplay of the game itself, and, if the gameplay its average, the game will have short legs, even if its the game with more content of the world.

    For example, there are games today with 30 or 40 hours of campaign, of 100GB size plus a lot of DLC, that i dont even want to play because the gameplay looks dull as f***.

    But Sega genesis games of 2mb or 4 mb of size can be played for decades, because the gameplay is really tight and well done. And its not nostalgia at all.

  6. #13281
    Road Rasher paulojr_mam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepodmc View Post
    But the content of any game works around the gameplay of the game itself, and, if the gameplay its average, the game will have short legs, even if its the game with more content of the world.

    For example, there are games today with 30 or 40 hours of campaign, of 100GB size plus a lot of DLC, that i dont even want to play because the gameplay looks dull as f***.

    But Sega genesis games of 2mb or 4 mb of size can be played for decades, because the gameplay is really tight and well done. And its not nostalgia at all.
    This to me is conflating having good gameplay with having replayability, to me those are two separate things. A game can have one and don't have the other and vice-versa. And a game can have great replayability and not be a good game, because being replayable is one factor among many. Paprium does seem to have shallow gameplay. But I'd say that about every beat 'em up I played, I'm not equipped to notice the gameplay nuances of those games. Paprium still seems shallower to me. Which to me makes it not a great game, because I care a lot about gameplay.
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  7. #13282
    Outrunner Vludi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
    Paprium does seem to have shallow gameplay. But I'd say that about every beat 'em up I played, I'm not equipped to notice the gameplay nuances of those games.
    If you can't even tell a good game from a bad one then I doubt you can realize the replay value of these games either. Maybe some of your views on replay value apply to some genres that focus more on collectibles and sheer quantity than engaging gameplay, but definitely not arcade style action games.
    Last edited by Vludi; 01-15-2021 at 01:52 PM.

  8. #13283
    Death Adder's minion Arkanoid's Avatar
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    Did anyone else who pre-ordered enter their shipping info "late" and actually get a game? Thanks to Hotmail conveniently putting the Watermelon e-mails into my junk folder, I didn't enter my shipping info until Dec 22, my order status has been at "packing" ever since. I can't say I'm surprised that nothing has happened since then, especially with the website now saying their customer service is suspended until January 25th (aka their entire operation of probably 1 person is suspended until who knows when).

  9. #13284
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    The thing about the extra content is that back in the day nobody was designing a beat 'em up to have 20 or more levels, if you had 6 or 7 that was plenty. The goal was not to make the longest game, it was to find the amount of content that a consumer was willing to pay for to justify development costs. If there was demand for additional levels that's what sequels were for. It's cool that Paprium has so much but it reflects the design philosophy of the modern era, where games have gotten longer on average.

  10. #13285
    Outrunner zredgemz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkanoid View Post
    Did anyone else who pre-ordered enter their shipping info "late" and actually get a game? Thanks to Hotmail conveniently putting the Watermelon e-mails into my junk folder, I didn't enter my shipping info until Dec 22, my order status has been at "packing" ever since. I can't say I'm surprised that nothing has happened since then, especially with the website now saying their customer service is suspended until January 25th (aka their entire operation of probably 1 person is suspended until who knows when).
    I wanna know if anyone in the US who got into the shipping phase but not shipped that put info on the 14th got anything and i mean Investor stuff not pre orders from 2017. Anyone after Christmas i mean.
    Last edited by zredgemz; 01-15-2021 at 04:27 PM.

  11. #13286
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert majinga's Avatar
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    It's a videogame.
    People have different tastes, some may like it and others may not.

    Personally I prefer something simpler like SOR or FF, with one start and one end.
    I played them many times, and I will play them again for sure!
    Like good movies, you can watch them many times, and enjoy them every time.

    Probably some people, like me, don't care about multiple endings, hidden secrets, unlockable elements, in a brawler.
    The only important thing is the fun.

    I found paprium a very strange game, more appearance than substance.

    There is a lot of strange things in this game.
    The first time I played it, I just walked around, without throwing a single punch. And I found very strange that the enemies didn't even tried to beat me. I don't know if was for the difficulty level, or because the game help you to walk in front of the enemies and perform the special move.

    I found the general gameplay very boring. I reached the level with the golden singing guy just by lazynelly pressing the B button.
    I used the jump kick only with the bosses.

    The game didn't catch players who don't want to look around in search of hidden secrets and collecting items.
    And there is noting wrong with this. I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of people who like this kind of games.

    I would have preferred something more classic, at least for the arcade mode. I would have left the rest for the story mode.

    The graphic is also strange. There are so many details. There are a lot of tiny elements on each level.
    But there are also some huge mistakes.
    There is a level where you can practically walk over the end wall on the right.
    The level with the escalators is also odd. The level seems to don't match with the previous or the following.
    There is the level with the fog, which is very beautiful in the beginning, the fog effect is great. Then the fog disappear, and the colors becomes faded. It became like a C64 game. Probably to make the idea of more fog. But the result is terrible, you don't have the feel to be in the fog, because there is no fog, and you was still able to see everything, every enemy. They are only more C64ish.

    My impression is that they tried a lot of visual effects in the making of the game. Of course, not all of them gave good results, and not all of them were a good choice for that particular game. But they kept them anyway.

    And there are a lot of other things.

    It's indeed a strange game.
    it is normal that there are conflicting opinions.

  12. #13287
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingWildside Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepodmc View Post
    The issue here is that you try to justify the unjustifiable. Paprium gameplay is average:

    *Bad hitboxes
    *Strange hitstun
    *Weapons like pipes with the same attack reach as your normal punches XD
    *Only with jump and kick you can complete the game, because it lacks characters like donovan in sor 2/3 that will hit you if you try to do that.
    *Very bad bosses, caused by a bad AI and a lack of a good spritesheet.


    About if sor 3 gameplay would work on paprium, it would. But paprium developers dont have the talent to reach the gameplay quality of Sor 3 so it doesnt matter, Paprium feels like a beta even gameplay wise.

    Thats why i always hate when a lot of people say that beat em ups are mindless games or simple games. You have to understand very well the way how a beat em up works, because if not, you will end up with something like paprium, a game which replay value consist more in the ammount of content than the quality of the gameplay.

    I dont understand the last question.
    Again this is your opinion.

    I never stated that Paprium's gameplay is the best. It is approachable and decent enough. I do not want something in it like in Mother Russia Bleeds or Fight'N Rage.

    To have something same like in SOR3 you need smaller sprites and more room for moving around. Copying gameplay itself is not a solution.

    You can hate even the whole world but it won't change it that beat'em ups were considered as mindless in comparison to fighting games. And it is not something I made up. Experimentations in moving them closer to fighting games in some aspects made many people move to the latter.

    The last question is about which gameplay mechanics and gameplay loop are easier to learn for anyone (even those who do not play video games)? SOR3's or Paprium's? IMO Paprium's.

  13. #13288
    Outrunner Stef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otobo View Post
    Hi Stef, I was wondering if the Z80 was used for anything else than sound in this game, and if using the custom chip for sound freed up some CPU resources which are then used for sprites etc.?
    No, Z80 is always used only for sound, to be honest it would be rather difficult to use it for something else...

    Quote Originally Posted by peido View Post
    So the MD3, Nomad and most clones are unable to play sound made by a chip inside the cartridge? That's why there is an option to use the MD sound hardware to make the sound instead of using the cartridge chip to make it?
    Kind of.. sound is still generated through the chip but as MD3, Nomad cannot route the chip DAC, the Z80 will read generated sound data through a buffer and send it to the YM DAC instead.

    If I want to know how the game would sound on a MD1/MD2/WonderMega/CDX/... if the cartridge did not have the extra chip, I just need to turn on this YM DAC option?
    Not really, as the chip is still generating the PCM sound (up to 24 PCM channels), there is no way to generate 24 PCM channels from the Z80 alone.
    But the PCM playback code from Z80 is definitely not optimal and quality is very degraded (16 Khz with auto timing adjustment which affect pitch and general quality).
    A native Z80 driver would have less much PCM channels, but we can definitely have better PCM playback than here

    A final question, with this YM DAC option enabled, besides the degradation of the sound, the quantity of sounds played at the same time will be the same or will it decrease?
    Exactly the same quantity (as the chip still produce it the same way), just the play quality which is affected.

  14. #13289
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    Quote Originally Posted by molasar View Post
    Again this is your opinion.
    Gameplay being the most important thing in a videogame is not an opinion (is a fact) . If you think that is not, you are simply wrong.

    For example, if i compare street fighter 1 and street fighter 2 and, i reach the conclusion that, SF2 is better, that would be my opinion and not a fact?

    There are opinions that are simply wrong, like if someone says that Street fighter 1 is better than street fighter 2.

    Because i consider that gameplay wise, there is the same difference between sf2 and sf1 than between Bare Knuckle 3 and paprium in terms of quality and polish of the gameplay.

    About the mechanics and gameplay loop, its simple. Make the game with a lot of well implemented gameplay mechanics and , if the human player is bad at the game, he/she can practise and improve his/her skills.

    Its like you are saying that, a deeper gameplay is something bad.
    Last edited by pepodmc; 01-15-2021 at 06:41 PM.

  15. #13290
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepodmc View Post
    Gameplay being the most important thing in a videogame is not an opinion (is a fact) . If you think that is not, you are simply wrong.

    For example, if i compare street fighter 1 and street fighter 2 and, i reach the conclusion that, SF2 is better, that would be my opinion and not a fact?

    There are opinions that are simply wrong, like if someone says that Street fighter 1 is better than street fighter 2.

    Because i consider that gameplay wise, there is the same difference between sf2 and sf1 than between Bare Knuckle 3 and paprium in terms of quality and polish of the gameplay.

    About the mechanics and gameplay loop, its simple. Make the game with a lot of well implemented gameplay mechanics and , if the human player is bad at the game, he/she can practise and improve his/her skills.

    Its like you are saying that, a deeper gameplay is something bad.

    Again it all depends on individual preferences and expectations.

    Also you can tell me which game has a better gameplay? SFA3 or SFIII:3rdS?

    Yes, a deeper gameplay can be bad. Also not every human player wants to practice.

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