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Thread: Playing RPGs

  1. #16
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-TrainingOutrunner
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    ^ For a lot of games, this is true. Some games break away from many of the formulas though. Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne is something I feel like I bring up all the time, but that game relies much more on strategy than grinding, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    I had some other dungeon crawlers on the C64 and Amiga. Those Amiga RPGs were brutally tough, because you had to wander the dungeons using the keyboard, and memorizing keys for spells and potion, while engaging in a real time fight. Dragon Wars was created by the people who made Bard's Tale. I never got very far in that game either.
    A friend of mine found a copy of Dragon Wars at a bookstore here around eight years ago for like 50 cents. The last time I talked to him about it, he made it one of his life goals to beat it. That was maybe four years ago, and he has since moved to a different state. I think I might want to follow up with him to see how that's going. I haven't looked into actually playing that game, but it's something I wouldn't mind owning for the cover art alone.

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    Underground Sega Nut BonusKun's Avatar
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    Now you've got me fucking curious about this game. Maybe I should see if I can find a copy to play and give this a challenge.
    05/05/15

  3. #18
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    You might try getting one without the box. A complete starts at about $50.

    It came out in 1989, so thatís probably the main reason I didnít play it much. I got an Amiga in 1990 and the Genesis in 1991, so I wasnít playing the C64 as much as I did in the mid 80sí. I had beaten all 3 Bardís Tales games before that, so I was also getting a little fatigue from playing that style of dungeon crawler.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  4. #19
    Japanese Sonic CD FTW!!! Master of Shinobi Ecco's Avatar
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    I don't play RPG's much... and wow, the advice in this thread, it just sounds like so much work, to be burdened with.

    As it's not my normal interest, I chose PSIV as my first real RPG and I loved it. Didn't struggle too much, or maybe it was just outbalanced by my enjoyment of its music / graphics / story / gameplay...

    Anyways my outlook is that it's an awesome first RPG to play through, so maybe try PSIV if other RPG's are not working out.

    I've also played through Pier Solar as my second real RPG, I really enjoyed it.

    But I basically only played through these 2 top-quality RPG's, which are probably more user-friendly, and better overall, than many / most other RPG's... so yeah, I recommend choosing one of the best RPG's out there (and thus avoiding the many RPG's which are less awesome, and probably more difficult / convoluted gameplay).

    This thread seems like everyone is playing all these various RPG's and getting completely burdened by all their different parts of gameplay... it sounds awful, lol.

    I won't try to give gameplay advice because most mentioned games sound more overly complicated than PSIV and Pier Solar, so I can't comment on all these other games...

    ALSO do you guys ever reflect that a good RPG is like an interactive novel? Which suggests to me, that I'd probably rather just read a good book.

  5. #20
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    It took me a loooong time to get into CRPGs. A cousin of mine was a big fan and tried to get me invested when the Gold Box D&D games by SSI were still relevant and games like Wizardry 7 and Might& Magic IV/V ruled the roost... And I just hated them. I never got the appeal of drawing your own maps, and I didn't really feel invested in the worlds these games created (though if you want strategic combat in your RPGs, the "Pool of Radiance" series, or Gold Box games in general, might just be the right choice for you.

    I got into CRPGs when I first played Fallout 2 in 1998, when it was included on the cover disc of a PC game magazine I had subscribed to. That's when the genre suddenly "clicked" with me and I realized what these earlier games lacked and what I was looking for in RPGs. I didn't care for drawing maps, I didn't want to have my teeth kicked in right in the opening stages because I failed to grind or didn't know where to go to and was immediately swamped by too powerful enemies, and gathering loot was secondary - I wanted story, an interesting game world, accessible mechanics and actual characters with backstory and motivations to get invested in. So I went back and found other games on consoles that would also scratch that particular itch, and Phantasy Star IV and Final Fantasy III/VI were a perfect fix. These games also force you to grind at some point, but they allot you to get used to how their mechanics work before tossing you into the Deep End - earlier RPGs (like Phantasy Star III) loved to be obtuse about that - I guess there was a design philosophy that figured that players needed to repeatedly try and try again in order to get really invested in a game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecco
    ALSO do you guys ever reflect that a good RPG is like an interactive novel? Which suggests to me, that I'd probably rather just read a good book.
    Not necessarily, because not everyone is looking for the same thing in their RPGs. There is story and world building, which have drawn me to the genre as well, but that's not what everyone is looking for in particular. Some are in it purely for the exploration. There are the dungeon crawl purists, to whom drawing their own maps had a very special appeal as well. Some are in it for loot and levelling your character to a power that borders on the ridiculous. Some are specifically into the "role playing" aspect, being able to discover a realm and story repeatedly anew with new classes that truly feel different to play as. And others are looking for a specific mix of these aspects. There aren't many CRPGs that truly covers all of these bases equally well (though Baldurs Gate I and II come to mind, and I guess the latter Elder Scrolls games from Morrowind onwards apply as well).

    /Edit: heh... And reading this post again I realize that "combat mechanics" didn't even come to my mind when I was writing this. Go figure. That's important, sure, but I would say not all that important in respects to ask of the other things I mentioned. I'm sure old school dungeon crawling enthusiasts would probably disagree though.
    Last edited by Phantar; 03-11-2021 at 10:50 AM.
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  6. #21
    Japanese Sonic CD FTW!!! Master of Shinobi Ecco's Avatar
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    ^Haha, those are all really great points. There's a lot of different aspects, that are emphasized differently, in different games.

    I really meant that text-heavy RPG's, can feel kinda like it's an interactive book experience, so I guess that's how my mind makes sense of it, lol.

    Context is that I've always enjoyed reading books etc., so I mean it in a good way, that text-heavy RPG's can feel like an interactive book.

    You know, like Pier Solar has tons of text to read, from all the diff. NPC's, mostly all with multiple bits of text.

    I haven't played for a while, but last time I was putting time into it: I'm playing a new game, all in Spanish, and then slowly translating it online... So I'm spending forever on the text lol, and it really is a great way to learn / practice Spanish. So this has a scholarly feel, broken up with gameplay, of course.

    PSIV also certainly can seem like a really cool anime book, sometimes, when there are extended cut scenes and conversations...

  7. #22
    Pirate King Phantar's Avatar
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    Well, some of the more popular JRPGs actually got turned into Animes that copy most of the plot and characters verbatim; Ys and Ys II come to mind there...

    Personally I also prefer the more text-heavy RPGs, like Planescape: Torment or the more recent Disco Elysium. However, I also prefer RPGs that allow for more personal freedom on how to approach a game. I really love the characters, world and Plot of PSIV or FF VI - but at the end of the day, these games (and many other JRPGs) are more or less strictly linear - characters and plot threads are fixed in their path, you have only limited possibilities on how to approach the scenario, and no matter how often you approach them, the end result is usually the same. (The big exception is Chrono Trigger, but it doesn't allow for much room on how to approach the game mechanics-wise; it just goes along different branches depending on what plot threads you did or did not stumble upon).

    Personally I prefer the RPGs that provide a deep plot and memorable characters but also allow for greater freedom on how to approach the game and its world itself. Do I want to be a smooth-talking diplomat? A hulking bruiser? A sneaky thief? A brutal bandit? That's why the early Fallout Games appealed to me: They gave off an "anything goes" vibe, and allowed me to define what role I wanted to play myself.

    Back in the mid-90s, I guess that was a key difference within CRPGs: How to define the word "role" in "Role-playing game". Most JRPGs defined role-playing games as "we provide the roles you get to play as", then provided these roles with rich backstories and agendas. Most (but certainly not all) western-made CRPGs rather approached the game as "you choose which role you want to play", which allowed more flexibility on the player's behalf, but left the actual character as more or less a blank slate. The former, if pulled off well, allows for great dramatic potential in a story - but it will always be someone else's story. If the latter is pulled off well, I get the feeling that I impacted the world with my own, personal decisions - it feels more like MY story, or at least, a story where I, personally, could call the shots.

    Sorry for the pseudo-philosophical tangent here.
    The funny thing about an oxymoron is, even if you remove the ox, there'll always be a moron. The Question Remains: Y?

  8. #23
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantar View Post
    It took me a loooong time to get into CRPGs. A cousin of mine was a big fan and tried to get me invested when the Gold Box D&D games by SSI were still relevant and games like Wizardry 7 and Might& Magic IV/V ruled the roost... And I just hated them. I never got the appeal of drawing your own maps, and I didn't really feel invested in the worlds these games created (though if you want strategic combat in your RPGs, the "Pool of Radiance" series, or Gold Box games in general, might just be the right choice for you.

    I got into CRPGs when I first played Fallout 2 in 1998, when it was included on the cover disc of a PC game magazine I had subscribed to. That's when the genre suddenly "clicked" with me and I realized what these earlier games lacked and what I was looking for in RPGs. I didn't care for drawing maps, I didn't want to have my teeth kicked in right in the opening stages because I failed to grind or didn't know where to go to and was immediately swamped by too powerful enemies, and gathering loot was secondary - I wanted story, an interesting game world, accessible mechanics and actual characters with backstory and motivations to get invested in. So I went back and found other games on consoles that would also scratch that particular itch, and Phantasy Star IV and Final Fantasy III/VI were a perfect fix. These games also force you to grind at some point, but they allot you to get used to how their mechanics work before tossing you into the Deep End - earlier RPGs (like Phantasy Star III) loved to be obtuse about that - I guess there was a design philosophy that figured that players needed to repeatedly try and try again in order to get really invested in a game.



    Not necessarily, because not everyone is looking for the same thing in their RPGs. There is story and world building, which have drawn me to the genre as well, but that's not what everyone is looking for in particular. Some are in it purely for the exploration. There are the dungeon crawl purists, to whom drawing their own maps had a very special appeal as well. Some are in it for loot and levelling your character to a power that borders on the ridiculous. Some are specifically into the "role playing" aspect, being able to discover a realm and story repeatedly anew with new classes that truly feel different to play as. And others are looking for a specific mix of these aspects. There aren't many CRPGs that truly covers all of these bases equally well (though Baldurs Gate I and II come to mind, and I guess the latter Elder Scrolls games from Morrowind onwards apply as well).

    /Edit: heh... And reading this post again I realize that "combat mechanics" didn't even come to my mind when I was writing this. Go figure. That's important, sure, but I would say not all that important in respects to ask of the other things I mentioned. I'm sure old school dungeon crawling enthusiasts would probably disagree though.
    They were following what was set by the paper and dice world of AD&D that a lot of us played in the early 80s. Even ET: the Extraterrestrial showed the kids playing AD&D, when the pizza man showed up.

    My 1st computer RPG was Phantasie on the C64. It didn't require any of the map making and was pretty much traversing simple dungeons and fighting odd creatures. It was pretty addicting, though there was a bug, if you had a copy of the original game. Your save and the game would corrupt, when it was loading up the lake area. It was a random bug and it was always wise to keep a backup copy of the disk, just in case.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasie
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  9. #24
    Super Sexy Sega Master of Shinobi cowboyscowboys's Avatar
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    There is as much gameplay in a Sega CD FMV games as their are in JRPG's. How JRPG's have any following is beyond my mental capacity.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyscowboys View Post
    How JRPG's have any following is beyond my mental capacity.
    Sucks to be you then. You have my sympathy.

    Just kidding. Seriously though, you are not alone with that assessment, in fact many fans of classic CRPGs (the old style Bard's Tale or Gold Box kind) certainly feel similarly. To them, JRPG mechanics feel dumbed down to an almost insultingly easy degree, where all you do is grind until you manage to reach the next city, where the next tier of better equipment is available, then repeat the process. That's why I can understand when the OP states that he doesn't "get" the strategy of JRPGs, because... Well, there isn't much to get. You grind for XP and money, stock up on equipment and healing items, then repeat the process, and try to enjoy the story along the way.

    Early Classic CRPGs(aside from maybe the Ultima series) may look similar on a superficial glance, with less plot and certainly less focus on character arcs - they also have a gameplay Loop of "grind until you're strong about, get better equipment, repeat". However, a good CRPG offers greater depth in terms of granular gameplay mechanics. Optimizing the stats of your individual party, minmaxing the right skills and attributes, crafting the perfect balance of race/class and abilities within your party members - in a good early CRPG, these become a science into itself, and make up a huge part of the core gameplay. For some, this constant balancing of stats of statistics is a huge, impenetrable barrier - for others, it's essential. If you enjoy that in an RPG, chances are you will find most JRPGs disappointing by comparison. (If you look for that kind of game play on the Genesis, check out Might & Magic II, or maybe Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday).

    JRPGs my have deep plots, but they don't exactly shine when it comes to any depth in their gameplay mechanics - games like Shin Megami Tensei or Chrono Trigger are about as good as it gets when it comes to gameplay variety in 16-bit era JRPGs. Or you switch to strategy- RPGs like Shining Force or Disgaea. And while JRPGs found a good, hit making formula for creating plots, worlds and interesting characters during the Genesis/SNES age, the gameplay mechanics sort of plateaued after that. Like the Original poster, I find the Sphere Grid mechanic in Final Fantasy X baffling at best, and utterly pointless in general ; it doesn't seem to matter what you take, you usually can progress just as fine without too much trouble. Compare that to a skill tree a roguelike Action RPG like Diablo II had in offer, where most of the selections offered a palpable difference in the ongoing gameplay.

    Later CRPGs from about 1997 learned from that, did ease up on the stat management that could feel like a gamified excel sheet at the worst of times, and took a page or two from the JRPG handbook to create better worlds, deeper plots and more interesting characters. JRPGs, by comparison, stagnated for a long time. Which is why, if you're used to more modern, western-made RPGs, a classic JRPG might feel a bit, well, 'lacking' in the gameplay department. All a matter of perspective, I would say.
    The funny thing about an oxymoron is, even if you remove the ox, there'll always be a moron. The Question Remains: Y?

  11. #26
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyscowboys View Post
    There is as much gameplay in a Sega CD FMV games as their are in JRPG's. How JRPG's have any following is beyond my mental capacity.
    What a shit take. Hilariously wrong and ignorant.

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  12. #27
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    The Elder Scrolls titles bucked the trend of most traditional RPGs. I think that Skyrim is the best RPG Iíve ever played, because the battles are all real time, and the sensation of exploring is second to none. I also think that Fallout 3 falls into my greatest RPGs list as well.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  13. #28
    The Cat in the Hat Shining Hero NeoVamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The Elder Scrolls titles bucked the trend of most traditional RPGs. I think that Skyrim is the best RPG Iíve ever played, because the battles are all real time, and the sensation of exploring is second to none. I also think that Fallout 3 falls into my greatest RPGs list as well.
    They are fun yeah, I love the exploration aspect. but its a shame that they've been turning more and more simple with each new game.
    At the rate they're going the next Fallout is going to be a full on corridor/room FPS shooter.

  14. #29
    Master of Shinobi Segadream's Avatar
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    There's just so many now I will never
    tap into anything at least three gens before
    whatevers current...
    I still haven't beaten many that I started.
    My first R.P.G. was FF1 and back then
    without any instructions I managed to beat
    it when I was 9.
    I played DW and didn't mind the dungeon
    crawling too much.
    With the already launched 16 bit era already
    filling my plate, I can say that the SNES gained
    my complete attention.
    I still managed to get Centy and also
    got Dark Savior and Shining Wisdom for the Saturn.
    I was not at all inpressed with Centy.
    And DS was decent but I lost interest after
    the platforming in the game is loathsome.
    The Shining wisdom kinda fell
    because it was nothing notable.
    I completed most of the top RPG'S
    for the SNES with great joy.
    I think the last time I actually took
    the time to complete a game was in
    1999, And I beat Saga Frontier and unlocked
    the secret ending.
    By then I had a list of already
    purchased RPG's that I still haven't
    picked up yet.
    I got a switch now, but you know
    what I'm gonna do with it?...
    Well buy DIABLO and play it again...
    I might dabble into some Monster Hunter
    if that ever comes to the Switch....
    Hell the last Zelda I played was Minnish Cap
    and still have to go and play the AGES
    and MAJORA ...
    I can say this, don't force yourself to hard
    on completing a game you have
    lost interest in because you might
    just burn out on the whole genre...
    Maybe it's because I'm an Adult and
    can do whatever I want so there's no
    need to escape into a place where
    you can be the hero of the world.
    Even if you still had the random encountered
    little sister just played before you and
    blinky lighted your save to hell, it was still at
    a time when giving it a rest was inconceivable.
    Back then it was never a "chore"....
    Hell, the way it's seeming,
    I'm prolly more inclined to go
    back...

    and burn and bomb every tree and
    mountainside one more cottonpickin time....

  15. #30
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    wtf

    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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