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Thread: Be wary of anyone who says bit or disc rot is a myth or not as bad

  1. #31
    Master of Shinobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    At the end of the day, if there truly were manufacturing defects in these print runs of discs to cause these pinhole issues and disc rot, then we should be seeing it in just about every copy of these games. Panzer Dragoon Saga for example had a print run or under 30,000 that was broken into 2 runs. If there was a manufacturing defect causing disc rot in that game we should be seeing it on just about every copy in existence right now as it's 23 years later. But we're not seeing it on all of them, we're not even seeing it on a significant number of them. The same holds true for most games on these systems.
    If the issues are related to manufacturing plants/runs, then it only affects certain print runs, and you'll only see it on those. If PD Saga wasn't made on a bad batch, then it won't have issues despite using the same print run all over.

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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    If the issues are related to manufacturing plants/runs, then it only affects certain print runs, and you'll only see it on those. If PD Saga wasn't made on a bad batch, then it won't have issues despite using the same print run all over.
    We're talking about US Saturn and Sega CD games here. These games all had relatively small print runs. I've seen people claim disc rot on just about every game they find with top layer damage. I've seen people try to claim it with PDS, Burning Rangers, Shining Force III, etc. These late games had very small print runs. If they had a manufacturing defect we should be seeing it in just about every copy of those games regardless of how well they've been taken care of by now. I should be seeing it on my copies that I've had for years now that I've kept in very good condition. But that isn't the case. We only see it on copies with questionable histories of how well they were cared for. This is pretty much the case across the board for Saturn and Sega CD games.

    If there were truly bad runs of games that were leading to disc rot, it would be much more prevalent by now. We would be seeing it in significant numbers on specific games regardless of how well they were cared for. But we're not seeing that at all. All we're seeing are people reporting pinholes in the beat up used copies they're buying on ebay or in used game shops, or in copies they kept stored in questionable conditions for 20+ years.

    The other thing to look at here is that the issue is pretty much unheard of with Japanese copies. One big thing here is that Japanese games had smaller less fragile jewel cases, and in general were taken care of better over the years than their US counterparts. So again if manufacturing defects were as prevalent as people are trying to claim, we should be seeing it on Japanese copies as well. But we typically don't.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    We're talking about US Saturn and Sega CD games here.
    You make a good point in that those may have had only one or two runs, and if the games in question have manufacturing defects, then the most if not all of the original discs are on the way to becoming coasters.

    But the market outside the US is far larger for those consoles, especially for the Saturn, and a bunch of games definitely got multiple print runs (I owned multiple copies of many discs that did - different IFPI label, different "Made in " country, etc etc).

    And honestly I could care less about the US market for those games. The prices are so fucked up in that region that if all the US copies of Panzer Dragoon Saga would turn into dust in the next two years, I'd laugh my ass off at the scalpers losing tens of thousands of dollars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    You make a good point in that those may have had only one or two runs, and if the games in question have manufacturing defects, then the most if not all of the original discs are on the way to becoming coasters.

    But the market outside the US is far larger for those consoles, especially for the Saturn, and a bunch of games definitely got multiple print runs (I owned multiple copies of many discs that did - different IFPI label, different "Made in " country, etc etc).

    And honestly I could care less about the US market for those games. The prices are so fucked up in that region that if all the US copies of Panzer Dragoon Saga would turn into dust in the next two years, I'd laugh my ass off at the scalpers losing tens of thousands of dollars.
    The point I'm getting at though is if there is seriously as big of a disc rot problem as people are trying to claim, it would be extremely evident to the point where we would see certain games just being completely lost to it by now. When bad print runs that lead to a form of rot or deterioration have happened in every other medium (Laser Discs, Audio CDs, etc.) it was evident with in a few years after the print run because so many cases were being reported. We are not seeing that at all here. Instead we just see people reporting pinholes in games where the level of care given to them can seriously be called into question.

    I'm not denying that disc rot is real. I'm simply saying people need to stop conflating pinholes and top layer damage with disc rot. Disc rot is stuff like bronzing, or the one picture posted earlier where a bacteria was eating the reflective layer, etc. Pinholes on the other hand are simply damage caused by mishandling or poor storage conditions since that lacquer layer is very easy to damage. It's why DVDs and the like stopped using a lacquer layer and instead sandwiched the reflective layer between two layers of plastic.

  5. #35
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    Agreed, the problems so far seem more up to poor storage.

    Like people using those CD booklets that can store dozens of discs in a plastic holder. The plastic could end up stuck to the disc surface and pull parts of it off. I've seen that happen in my own hands (luckily they weren't mine).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    The point I'm getting at though is if there is seriously as big of a disc rot problem as people are trying to claim, it would be extremely evident to the point where we would see certain games just being completely lost to it by now. When bad print runs that lead to a form of rot or deterioration have happened in every other medium (Laser Discs, Audio CDs, etc.) it was evident with in a few years after the print run because so many cases were being reported. We are not seeing that at all here. Instead we just see people reporting pinholes in games where the level of care given to them can seriously be called into question.

    I'm not denying that disc rot is real. I'm simply saying people need to stop conflating pinholes and top layer damage with disc rot. Disc rot is stuff like bronzing, or the one picture posted earlier where a bacteria was eating the reflective layer, etc. Pinholes on the other hand are simply damage caused by mishandling or poor storage conditions since that lacquer layer is very easy to damage. It's why DVDs and the like stopped using a lacquer layer and instead sandwiched the reflective layer between two layers of plastic.
    You have so much more patience than me in repeating this reasoning, I commend you. Normally I just say it once and people shrug me off.

    I've already repped you for these posts but I wanted to say agree 100%, we would be having other indicators if rot was really prevalent for certain games/systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by StarMist View Post
    A spine card is the hymen of a new game assuring its first owner that he is truly her one and only, and of a used game assuring its new owner that whilst she has been played with in the past that play has never been too careless or thorough.

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