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Thread: Was Saturn doomed to fail or could it somehow have sold more than the PS1?

  1. #31
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leynos View Post
    PS4 succeeded for the same reason PS1 did. Took advantage of the competition fuck ups.
    Don't sell Sony short. It's been discussed enough on this forum, but to reiterate:

    One of Sony's main advantages was that it approached the industry in a very different way from Sega (and Nintendo).

    Sega approached home console manufacturing as primarily a means to promote its own games. It was, after all, first and foremost a game developer. Working with third-party publishers was a necessary component to success but not the focus.

    Sony, on the other hand, had a completely different angle on the industry. It didn't care about promoting its own games (it didn't really have any at first). Instead, it saw opportunity wholly in working with third-party publishers. Sony wanted to control the platform--it didn't care about building up their own game business.

    Sony's approach is what caused it to focus on making its hardware easy for outside developers to work with. Sega, on the other hand, ignored outside devs and said 'as long as our developers can handle it, we'll be OK.'

    In the end, third parties loved Sony because it represented a way to escape the power of Nintendo/Sega. If you're Namco or Konami or whoever, it's a losing battle to publish on your main competitor's platform where they have all the control. The PlayStation was a way to escape that.

    Square didn't just develop for the PlayStation because the N64 didn't use CD-ROMs. They expressed interest in working with Sony before the PlayStation was even released--on the condition that Sony sell at least 3 million units first. For any third-party publishers, Sony just offered a better vision of the future.

    P.S. I know I say this every time Sony is mentioned, but everyone here should really read the book Revolutionaries at Sony. It's the most insightful book that exists on the topic and will help dispel a lot of the misconceptions repeated here.

  2. #32
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    The VDP1/2 was the same originally and they still would've had to make development tools out of nothing, so no, it would have been exactly as difficult to develop for the Saturns "original design".
    The 2nd CPU was usually ignored in ports, because devs weren’t that familiar with parallel processing at the time. It certainly added some difficulty getting people accustomed to that design.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  3. #33
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    I don't know why these are the only two options. I don't think the Saturn could have realistically sold better than the PS1, but I do think it could've sold closer to N64 numbers and not been a failure.


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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    The 2nd CPU was usually ignored in ports, because devs weren’t that familiar with parallel processing at the time. It certainly added some difficulty getting people accustomed to that design.
    Yes, but that's something that the devkits improved upon greatly over time, and could have improved even further had the platform stayed alive longer. But navigating the VDP1/2 for the most optimal setup for your game? You had to do absolutely brutal workarounds for the lack of features, and do it within the extremely limited speed of the VDP1, and that would not have been any different had the Saturn only came with 1 strong CPU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Yes, but that's something that the devkits improved upon greatly over time, and could have improved even further had the platform stayed alive longer. But navigating the VDP1/2 for the most optimal setup for your game? You had to do absolutely brutal workarounds for the lack of features, and do it within the extremely limited speed of the VDP1, and that would not have been any different had the Saturn only came with 1 strong CPU.
    Wouldn't you say that it only works if the Saturn was the lead platform? It's sort of like Sony with the PS3's design. Ports from the 360 only utilized the main core of the Cell processor, and didn't take advantage of the SPEs. Once 3rd party devs started making the PS3 the lead platform, the console started having better 3rd party games than on 360.
    Last edited by gamevet; 02-12-2021 at 01:28 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamevet View Post
    Wouldn't you say that it only works if the Saturn was the lead platform? It's sort of like Sony with the PS3's design. Ports from the 360 only utilized the main core of the Cell processor, and didn't take advantage of the SPEs. Once 3rd party devs started making the PS3 the lead platform, the console started having better 3rd party games than on 360.
    Yeah but that happened because the Wii wasn't a factor anymore, Microsoft was too busy pissing away every advantage they had by forcing the Kinect down everyones throats, and after so many years the PS3 finally became an affordable console with a decent price point - so it was by default the best console on the market, and more worth it to make games for.
    Devkits may have improved on that too, I didn't follow that too closely, but I do recall Mike Cerny mentioning that the most enormous fuckup of the PS3 was that it was extremely difficult to just draw a pixel on the screen at first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Yeah but that happened because the Wii wasn't a factor anymore, Microsoft was too busy pissing away every advantage they had by forcing the Kinect down everyones throats, and after so many years the PS3 finally became an affordable console with a decent price point - so it was by default the best console on the market, and more worth it to make games for.
    Devkits may have improved on that too, I didn't follow that too closely, but I do recall Mike Cerny mentioning that the most enormous fuckup of the PS3 was that it was extremely difficult to just draw a pixel on the screen at first.
    The Wii was a non-factor for the 360 and PS3. That console was a souped up Gamecube with a motion control. A good portion of its good 3rd party games were just PS2 games with motion control added. It would be akin to the likes of if the N64 was just an enhanced SNES, getting beefed up 16-bit titles.

    Basically, 360 titles were developed for the console's 3 core Power PC CPU and it's slightly more advanced GPU. The PS3 Cell could calculate vectors, to take the load off of the GPU and help to create better geometry, which when fully utilized, could get you games like Killzone 3, Uncharted 2 and The Last of Us on the console. The early PS3 titles didn't run all that well either, including Call of Duty 4, which had a blocky mess for shadows. And I remember playing Full Auto on the PS3 in 2006, and the game just chugged because of the CPU bottleneck. Just looking at the first Uncharted, comparted to Uncharted 2, clearly shows just how tough it was to get the SPEs in tune with the GPU, along with helping out that single Power PC core.

    Getting developers to manage a 2 CPU setup would have been just as difficult at the time, because PCs were all using single core CPUs and few arcade boards used more than one CPU either. Like Yu said, " 1 out of 100 programmers could properly utilize the Saturn."
    Last edited by gamevet; 02-13-2021 at 12:10 AM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I don't know why these are the only two options. I don't think the Saturn could have realistically sold better than the PS1, but I do think it could've sold closer to N64 numbers and not been a failure.
    This is more realistic.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  9. #39
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    The Wii was definitely a factor early on, it sold extremely well extremely fast and people just didn't bother getting the expensive nextgen consoles. Also you could get a Xbox 360 and a Wii at the same time for the price of the PS3 (people called it Wii60).

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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    The Wii was definitely a factor early on, it sold extremely well extremely fast and people just didn't bother getting the expensive nextgen consoles. Also you could get a Xbox 360 and a Wii at the same time for the price of the PS3 (people called it Wii60).
    That has nothing to do with software development for the PS3 though. The 360 bombed in Japan, but it still took quite some time for Japanese developers (and Sony's in-house developers) to get a handle on the PS3's hardware design, while Japanese games for the 360 performed pretty well. Like the Saturn, Sony took massive losses on PS3 hardware sales, but unlike Sega, Sony could withstand the losses and overcome the difficulties of getting the best out of their console's hardware. 2009 was the year when the PS3 wasn't a loss for Sony and the software really started to show the power of the hardware, while by year 3 of the Saturn, the software started to show the power of the hardware, but Sega couldn't afford to sell the console at a loss anymore.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #41
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    360 was a minor success in Japan selling 1.5 million systems. XBO sold a fraction of that. 360 had quite a few exclusive Japan-only exclusive games. Including the very last entry in the Far East of Eden series.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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  12. #42
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    It's kind of a different situation for the Playstation 3, many devs could get around simply using middleware software to get their games running on all consoles, or even ignore the PS3 completely and focus on Wii, PSP, DS, or even just PS2 for a few more years. Or even XBLA or WiiWare or PC. It's in overseas that the 360 and Wii made the PS3 a non-factor for most of the 2000s, from what I remember anyway.

    Also keep in mind that for Sony it was imperative that they get their devkits done as good as possible, while for Sega it was a secondary concern as they were primarily promoting their own games.

    There are parallels in the hardware, I agree, but the market was very different.

  13. #43
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    At the very least, the PS3 hardware was powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with the Xbox 360.
    The Saturn was way behind the PS1 for 3D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    At the very least, the PS3 hardware was powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with the Xbox 360.
    The Saturn was way behind the PS1 for 3D.
    is not true, it shows that your analyzes are biased,
    the difference between saturn and ps1 is extremely close with advantages for saturn in certain specific situations. PS1 same thing, advantages on ps1 in other 3D situations. there is no absolute truth regarding the power of both consoles with respect to 3D

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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    is not true, it shows that your analyzes are biased,
    the difference between saturn and ps1 is extremely close with advantages for saturn in certain specific situations. PS1 same thing, advantages on ps1 in other 3D situations. there is no absolute truth regarding the power of both consoles with respect to 3D
    Go fuck yourself.

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