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Thread: Was Saturn doomed to fail or could it somehow have sold more than the PS1?

  1. #46
    Master of Shinobi
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    Actually the X360 vs PS3 is not unlike the comparison of PS1 and Saturn, performance wise. PS3 has theoretically more cpu grunt but it is very hard to max it out and it is arguable if it really is more powerful or not for pure math - just like the Saturn with its double SH2 + DSP.
    But both the PS3 and Saturn were significantly outclassed in GPU power, and it took for so long for games to have efficient enough code to close the distance.

    I still say the major reason why PS3 caught up graphics wise isn't because the Cell is so magically powerful, but because Microsoft abandoned everything to pursue the Kinect which was a dead end.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Go fuck yourself.
    calm down, I already reported.

    it was good that you participated in the thread so I could see some compliments that I read of you in other threads do not correspond to reality, you do not have technical knowledge to talk about sega saturn or ps2 or any other console, only common sense, the philosophy of the masses.

  3. #48
    Mega Driver Hedgehog-in-TrainingMaster of Shinobi Gryson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    calm down, I already reported.

    it was good that you participated in the thread so I could see some compliments that I read of you in other threads do not correspond to reality, you do not have technical knowledge to talk about sega saturn or ps2 or any other console, only common sense, the philosophy of the masses.
    So please give us a technical breakdown of the strengths of the Saturn over the PS1 in terms of 3D.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    So please give us a technical breakdown of the strengths of the Saturn over the PS1 in terms of 3D.
    yes, it's late i will do it tomorrow

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    calm down, I already reported.
    I gave my point of view and you attacked me for no good reason.
    That response is what you deserve for being such a toolbox and dense fanboy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    it was good that you participated in the thread so I could see some compliments that I read of you in other threads do not correspond to reality, you do not have technical knowledge to talk about sega saturn or ps2 or any other console, only common sense, the philosophy of the masses.
    "the difference between saturn and ps1 is extremely close"
    ^This statement pretty much sums up how "knowledgeable" and "unbiased" you are.

    I really wish the real Saturn was the fanboy Saturn, so I wouldn't have to experience 20 fps 3D games with no transparency, lack of proper lighting, low res dark textures and noticeable popup in most of its 3rd party titles.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    So please give us a technical breakdown of the strengths of the Saturn over the PS1 in terms of 3D.
    Saturn could do a bowtie quad, had less texture distortion for square textures (but more for triangles), and hi-res screen resolution did not affect the amount of textures you could use (however it limited the color count and therefore the lightning).
    And you could use the VDP2 to do draw large plains, or an impressive cloudy skybox, or do full screen fading for no polygon charge.

    That's about it.

    I actually do wonder if hi-res lightning would be possible or not on the Saturn, yeah you are limited to 256 colors but that didn't limit DOS games from having them.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    I gave my point of view and you attacked me for no good reason.

    I just quoted you, and you felt attacked, I think we started out wrong.

    I would like to put a key point in the conversation.

    the '' power '' can be interpreted as '' power for what? '' Dead or alive is a good example, the playstation runs a different and simplified version of the game, although the beautiful look it's less advanced. the same is true with the ps3, the cpu cell has high capacity with vector calculations but the processing paradigms in that generation were based on gpu, thing have changed, so a important strenght of ps3 was left aside by third parties due to all lobbies ect. that allowed the paradigm shift.
    thats my point

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    I just quoted you, and you felt attacked, I think we started out wrong.
    No, you didn't just quote me. You said my "analyzes are biased".
    And I wasn't even replying to you directly.

    Also, it's common sense, even among former Saturn developers that the PS1 had better performance and more advanced features for 3D graphics.
    I really shouldn't be attacked for stating the obvious.


    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    Dead or alive is a good example, the playstation runs a different and simplified version of the game, although the beautiful look it's less advanced.
    Explain "less advanced", please.

  9. #54
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    I actually do wonder if hi-res lightning would be possible or not on the Saturn, yeah you are limited to 256 colors but that didn't limit DOS games from having them.
    If I remember correctly gouraud shading doesn't work in that mode on paper, but if you set up the palettes just right it kind of works due to a bug?

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    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Actually the X360 vs PS3 is not unlike the comparison of PS1 and Saturn, performance wise. PS3 has theoretically more cpu grunt but it is very hard to max it out and it is arguable if it really is more powerful or not for pure math - just like the Saturn with its double SH2 + DSP.
    But both the PS3 and Saturn were significantly outclassed in GPU power, and it took for so long for games to have efficient enough code to close the distance.

    I still say the major reason why PS3 caught up graphics wise isn't because the Cell is so magically powerful, but because Microsoft abandoned everything to pursue the Kinect which was a dead end.
    No, the Cell really was a more powerful CPU than the 3 core Power PC CPU in the Xbox 360. It could do calculations for the GPU, and Sony even considered using a second Cell CPU as a GPU.

    http://www.redgamingtech.com/ubisoft...u-performance/

    Quote Originally Posted by redgamingtech
    In the above image, we can see the results of running cloth simulation on the the systemís CPU. The previous generation Ė Microsoftís Xbox 360, and Sonyís Playstation 3 had very robust CPUís. Naughty Dog (along with many other developers) have often highly praised the PS3ís SPUís (Synergistic Processing Unit) as they were in effect vector processors Read more on the PS3ís cell processor here. They were in some ways a precursor to the Playstation 4ís GPGPU structure. So, the Jaguarís lag behind, running the cloth simulation is too expensive.
    I can't find the original article that he got those cloth physics numbers from. That article included an i7, and it couldn't keep up with the Cell with this test.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryson View Post
    So please give us a technical breakdown of the strengths of the Saturn over the PS1 in terms of 3D.
    The Saturn took up more 3D physical space than PS1.

    Life!? ... What console is that on?

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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    If I remember correctly gouraud shading doesn't work in that mode on paper, but if you set up the palettes just right it kind of works due to a bug?
    Gouraud Shading doesn't work on palette modes "on paper", but works in practice (it alters the palette code instead of the color value). That's why I'm wondering - does 8-bit or hi-res mode specifically prohibit the processing of the shading tables, or does the manual says you can't use them in hi-res due to the fact that 8-bit mode forces the use of palettes where the results for shading is "not guaranteed"?

  13. #58
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    No, the moment Sega dropped the Saturn as it was, was the moment the Saturn was bound to be heavily outsold by the PS1 and Sega to lose a lot of money in the next following years.
    Sony bested Nintendo and Sega by rewriting the rules, it was basically a new kind of console manufacturer which derived the success on the basis of strong platform holder investments and heavy support by third-parties (courted heavily by Sony).
    Nintendo and Sega had third-parties licensees on their side but were run essentially as first-party driven console makers.

    The real question should be how Sega could have be profitable and resist to the onslaught during the 32/64 bit gen to then become once again successful in following generations (like happened to Nintendo).
    It would have been hard regardless because Sega was structurally a weak company. Their reliance on the arcade identity to set apart their consoles from competition was also a ticking bomb.

    The most natural outcome was always that mega corporation would enter the video game business utilizing a third-party driven business model and push the pure videogame companies with the console division out of the business.
    Nintendo should be seen as a special expcetion, not the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    I think this is overplayed, particularly by Sony themselves. Panasonic (Matsushita) was larger than Sony at the time, had CD pressing and massive IC manufacturing plants, and didn't even make a dent in the video game market with 3DO despite massive resources.
    3DO business model was faulted, it was impossible for it to succeed (having the software platform being controlled by a small company like 3DO Company and leaving the hardware manufacturers which got the console license to duking out only on the margin brought in by hardware was a suicide plan).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Folco View Post
    3DO business model was faulted, it was impossible for it to succeed (having the software platform being controlled by a small company like 3DO Company and leaving the hardware manufacturers which got the console license to duking out only on the margin brought in by hardware was a suicide plan).
    I still don't know why Panasonic ever agreed to manufacture for 3DO. They couldn't have made that much money off the deal.

    The real question should be how Sega could have be profitable and resist to the onslaught during the 32/64 bit gen to then become once again successful in following generations (like happened to Nintendo).
    Very good point. Nintendo was on life support all throughout the GC/late N64 era, and only came back with the Wii, also by rewriting the rules.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folco View Post
    No, the moment Sega dropped the Saturn as it was, was the moment the Saturn was bound to be heavily outsold by the PS1 and Sega to lose a lot of money in the next following years.
    The recent-ish interview with Hideki Sato says that things were the other way around: Sega was losing so much money manufacturing the Saturn, that they had to lower the manufacturing numbers to curb the losses, despite there being huge demand.

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