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Thread: Do you guys like Batman Returns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RvR View Post
    Now that I think about it that probably is why the cartoon game is like that lol
    The developers really missed the point with the sequel, Adventures of Batman & Robin CD. Those driving levels are not fun to play and are too hard. If it had been of the gameplay quality that Batman Returns CD had, it could have been glorious! It appears they took John O'Brien's scaling engine but didn't succeed in making new levels to be fun AT ALL.

    And then they didn't include any of the Genesis version's platforming levels. So ... not fun, too hard, and repetitive as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I think you never played the game 'haha'. The driving sections alone, are made up of 5 separate area's each with 6 different stages. Far bigger than what most driving games would offer at the time
    Look. I agree with you that the real reason to play this game, at least for me, is the driving stages. I though the platform stages were garbage, but as as the driving parts... let's not exaggerate now. There are 4 driving stages (while I haven't played this game since the 90s, I just checked a long play on youtube). Sub stages my ass.. they're simply check points (literally nothing changes). Just because the platforming stages are trash, doesn't mean they're "little more than added bonus". They ARE the main game. The driving parts are not fleshed out enough to be their own game, but the platform levels are. Length has nothing to do with it. The driving stages ARE the addon bonus here (even if it is a pretty nice bonus). Sometimes you just say completely non-factual stuff to support your bias/preference. I know you're a super fanboi over this game, but that doesn't make your statements true. That's all I'm pointing out - otherwise I agree with you when it comes to people reviewing the game. But on the flip side, I'm also aware these scaling games haven't aged well. ~12fps choppy 15 color gameplay plane for the driving scenes are harder on the eyes these days. It's not going to be as receptive as your rose colored glasses for these games from BITD. Once the first impression wore off on the driving stages, the choppy frame rate and limited colors was apparent even back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turboxray View Post
    Look. I agree with you that the real reason to play this game, at least for me, is the driving stages. I though the platform stages were garbage, but as as the driving parts... let's not exaggerate now. There are 4 driving stages (while I haven't played this game since the 90s, I just checked a long play on youtube). Sub stages my ass.. they're simply check points (literally nothing changes). Just because the platforming stages are trash, doesn't mean they're "little more than added bonus". They ARE the main game. The driving parts are not fleshed out enough to be their own game, but the platform levels are. Length has nothing to do with it. The driving stages ARE the addon bonus here (even if it is a pretty nice bonus). Sometimes you just say completely non-factual stuff to support your bias/preference. I know you're a super fanboi over this game, but that doesn't make your statements true. That's all I'm pointing out - otherwise I agree with you when it comes to people reviewing the game. But on the flip side, I'm also aware these scaling games haven't aged well. ~12fps choppy 15 color gameplay plane for the driving scenes are harder on the eyes these days. It's not going to be as receptive as your rose colored glasses for these games from BITD. Once the first impression wore off on the driving stages, the choppy frame rate and limited colors was apparent even back then.
    Go back and watch youtube and learn there are 5 Levels (Act's) each with 6 stages (3 in the car and 2 in the Batski) making a grand total of 30 stages. That is bigger than most racers around at the time or even ones that came later; Sega Rally is held up as classic despite having just 4 stages and RR only had level. So the driving sections were more than big enough to be a game in their own right (more so for a 1993 game) and it's clear to anyone who plays the game that's where the development and focus were put into the Mega CD game, while nothing was done to the cart game other than some nice new music.
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 03-21-2021 at 04:42 AM.
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    There is definitely enough content in the driving section for it to be a standalone game, I presume thatís why there is the option to select driving only or platform only in the options screen.

    I have to disagree with the choppy scaling and colour criticism, itís probably clever basing the stages at night, in the snow, in the sewers etc so it doesnít need so many colours. But this is a good looking and running game that at times looks like a 32-bit 2D game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sut View Post

    I have to disagree with the choppy scaling and colour criticism, itís probably clever basing the stages at night, in the snow, in the sewers etc so it doesnít need so many colours. But this is a good looking and running game that at times looks like a 32-bit 2D game.
    When you go on youtube you probably think it's just 12 fps. Batman Returns certainly looks better and far less jerky and graphically far more impressive than the likes of OutRunners, OutRun, Super Hang-On on the Mega Drive IMO
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    Mixed feelings about this game. The driving stages look nice and the soundtrack's really good, but the platform sections are quite cheaply designed gameplay wise, and they're grainy looking. Also, if I'm honest with myself, I don't find the driving sections that fun to play on the whole. Nice looking, yes, but they just don't do it for me. They do get choppy in combat too, which is probably an inevitable consequence of the limited bandwidth between the Mega CD and the Mega Drive's VRAM.
    Last edited by Silanda; 03-22-2021 at 09:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    When you go on youtube you probably think it's just 12 fps. Batman Returns certainly looks better and far less jerky and graphically far more impressive than the likes of OutRunners, OutRun, Super Hang-On on the Mega Drive IMO
    Aren't Sega/Mega-CD ASIC effects basically capped at <15fps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Aren't Sega/Mega-CD ASIC effects basically capped at <15fps?
    I think It depends on the size of the window and also how many effects are being used. For instance, Chuck Rock 2 uses Asic effects and that runs at 60 FPS the same goes for Switch and Puggsy. Yeah ok they're not major effects, but still
    I think Sarah Avory said Thunderdawk runs at 17 FPS some say that Night Striker is running at 24 FPS not that I believe that. The big difference when using the ASIC chip was really in the smoothness of the scaling itself, which was far smoother than that seen in OutRun, Super Hang-On or GF 2 on a base Mega Drive despite those games running at higher frames. For me Batman on the Mega CD looked more impressive than Outrun, Space harrier either on the MD or PC Eng and Soulstar was a lot more impressive than GF II on the MD all thanks to heavy use of the ASIC chip

    Let us also remember this was the early 90's when games like Star Fox or Virtual Racing barley got past 15 FPS and only supported 16 colours on screen and they're were held up as some of the most impressive graphics on the Snes and MD respectively . I remember when I got Geoff's F1 GP2 on my Pentium PC the best I could get was 22 FPS. People were more forgiving on frames back then, until the dawn of the 32 bit systems imo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    People were more forgiving on frames back then, until the dawn of the 32 bit systems imo
    THIS.
    Frame rate was never a thing, I cannot remember people/magazines mentioning framerates at all. I come from a ZX Speccy and Atari ST gaming background before I moved onto Sega consoles. And going back to some of those games now, framerate wise = yikes !

    I understand why it became a thing, I can remember the first time I played a Mega Drive (hell even apply this to NES/Master System games) we noticed they ran smoother but we couldn't put our finger on why ?. In hindsight and knowledge European home computer framerates ran at choppier frame rates especially the likes of the Spectrum and ST that had no hardware scrolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I think It depends on the size of the window and also how many effects are being used. For instance, Chuck Rock 2 uses Asic effects and that runs at 60 FPS the same goes for Switch and Puggsy. Yeah ok they're not major effects, but still
    I think Sarah Avory said Thunderdawk runs at 17 FPS some say that Night Striker is running at 24 FPS not that I believe that. The big difference when using the ASIC chip was really in the smoothness of the scaling itself, which was far smoother than that seen in OutRun, Super Hang-On or GF 2 on a base Mega Drive despite those games running at higher frames. For me Batman on the Mega CD looked more impressive than Outrun, Space harrier either on the MD or PC Eng and Soulstar was a lot more impressive than GF II on the MD all thanks to heavy use of the ASIC chip

    Let us also remember this was the early 90's when games like Star Fox or Virtual Racing barley got past 15 FPS and only supported 16 colours on screen and they're were held up as some of the most impressive graphics on the Snes and MD respectively . I remember when I got Geoff's F1 GP2 on my Pentium PC the best I could get was 22 FPS. People were more forgiving on frames back then, until the dawn of the 32 bit systems imo
    What are the ASIC effects in Chuck Rock 2, Switch and Puggsy?

    You're also now arguing against yourself after criticized turboxray for saying that 'Batman Returns is 12 fps and choppy' but now say that 15fps was "some of the most impressive graphics on the Snes and MD respectively".
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    Aren't the scaling FX in Chuck Rock 2 also in the regular Genesis / MD version?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    What are the ASIC effects in Chuck Rock 2, Switch and Puggsy?
    In Chuck 2 on the Mega CD the three rock boulders now rotate 360 degrees near the end of the 1st stage. When on the dinosaur back the bird now smoothly scales in and rotates, in the lava level there are extra rotation effects Ect
    In Puggy's there's are extra effects to the bosses like better scaling and rotation effects. The laughing Salesman also makes endless use of the ASIC chip and I would imagine that's running at 30 FPS bare minimum, same goes for Panic/Swtich. I'm pretty sure Robo Aletse also users the ASIC chip in a limited capacity and that's running at 60 FPS. Cliffhanger 3D sections are really smooth, so I don't agree that all ASIC effects are 12 FPS

    'Batman Returns is 12 fps and choppy' but now say that 15fps was "some of the most impressive graphics on the Snes and MD respectively
    Huh? I'm saying VR and Star Fox were held up by many fans of the systems and reviewers (at the time) for new levels of graphics on those systems. It didn't seem to matter than both games run at 15 FPS or both games only had 16 colours on screen, so call out a 1993 Mega CD game seems a little much?

    I did't find Batman Returns choppy, much the same for Cliffhanger, Soul Star, Battle Corps and Thunder Hawk. I found F1 Beyond the Limit BC racers, Joe Montana, Adv of Batman Returns to be far more choppy
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 03-23-2021 at 01:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    Aren't Sega/Mega-CD ASIC effects basically capped at <15fps?
    It depends on how many unique tiles of scaled graphics are being produced by the ASIC. AFAIK the main issue is that all graphics generated by the Mega/Sega CD have to be copied into the Mega Drive/Genesis's VRAM as tiles before they can be displayed as sprites or background layers, and there's only a limited amount of bandwidth for that. Ignoring any overheads there may be on the CD side, there's only enough bandwidth on an NTSC system to copy a full screen's worth of graphic tiles at ~15fps. This would also limit the performance of fullscreen FMV playback even if there was a miraculous codec with infinite compression and zero CPU usage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silanda View Post
    It depends on how many unique tiles of scaled graphics are being produced by the ASIC. AFAIK the main issue is that all graphics generated by the Mega/Sega CD have to be copied into the Mega Drive/Genesis's VRAM as tiles before they can be displayed as sprites or background layers, and there's only a limited amount of bandwidth for that. Ignoring any overheads there may be on the CD side, there's only enough bandwidth on an NTSC system to copy a full screen's worth of graphic tiles at ~15fps. This would also limit the performance of fullscreen FMV playback even if there was a miraculous codec with infinite compression and zero CPU usage.

    I'm pretty sure both Sarah Avory and Jon Hilliard said you could go higher than 15 FPS and past 20 FPS, but yes if listen to Jon Hilliard interview (in I think was Mega Power) the memory bandwidth was a major issue and why many developers didn't even bother to use the ASIC chip , which Jon said was pretty simple to use (just 7 lines of code) and very powerful. Going full screen was never an option and it crippled Sonic CD. Most of the skilled Mega CD developers used on-screen huds to disguise the use of a window when using the ASIC chip for loads of effects.
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    Yeah, it can go higher as long as the thing's being scaled or rotated aren't taking up too many unique tiles. Games used tricks like vertical and horizontal flipping to avoid drawing too many.

    I wonder if that's why Night Striker is so low res. It looks like everything that's scaled is drawn to background plane A at half vertical resolution, and I assume a h-int technique is used to double the height, therefore requiring half the tiles. The road's drawn to plane B and appears to be a linescroll effect rather than a scaled road like the one in Batman Returns. That might explain why Night Striker is rather smooth despite quite a lot of action going on.

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