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Thread: Saturn Vs. 3DO FMV

  1. #61
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    My impression for 25 years has been that everyone agrees True Motion is usually better. Not trying to argue technical details, but it's strange to see people claim otherwise.


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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    The issue with Truemotion is that it's limited to 15-bit RGB. So things usually have a heavily posterized or washed out look to them. Sometimes they'll even dither it to hide those issues. It also requires a lot more CPU resources than Cinepak and doesn't really do full screen very well. You can get near full screen like 308x200, but not actual true full screen of 320x224 or higher like you can with Cinepak. To be honest a lot of times Cinepak isn't fullscreen it's not because of a technical reason, it's usually that the letterboxed format or smaller size is just the aspect ratio of the source file (Clockwork Knight, Panzer Dragoon, NiGHTS, etc.) or that the developers tried to cram too many FMVs on one disc (Lunar Silver Star Story).

    Both of the two common codecs have their pros and cons, I've just found I can almost always get better results with Cinepak.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    I was more impressed with True tbh, its hard to think of any Saturn titles with better quality FMV than Digital Dance Mix or Lupin the Third but there are also fabulous examples of Cinepak too, but Looking at latter SEGA titles that either used True or Cinepak I was more impressed with the quality of Last Bronx intro to Burning Rangers. I can't see why heavy overheads of CPU use would be an issue for FMV when there is little gameplay involved when FMV intro are sued and Mr Bones handled it ok, would love to know how much overheads True Motion uses mind for both the Saturn and Dreamcast as CRI said that Mepegsoftdec used 50% of the SH4 on the DC . I used to see some people say that games like Final Fantasy would be Impossible on Saturn due the way FMV blends into gameplay, playing Riven on the Saturn with lovely use of Truemotion, blows that myth out the window never mix FMV with real-time sprites

    BTW Treckkie, this isn't a trick question or anything and I'm just generally interested what was for you the best example of FMV on the Saturn? I used to think it was Lupin, but going back to Digital dance mix makes me think that's the best example I saw that said Grandia intro was amazing and I've seen many say it runs in the Saturn semi high res mode is that true?
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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I was more impressed with True tbh, its hard to think of any Saturn titles with better quality FMV than Digital Dance Mix or Lupin the Third but there are also fabulous examples of Cinepak too, but Looking at latter SEGA titles that either used True or Cinepak I was more impressed with the quality of Last Bronx intro to Burning Rangers. I can't see why heavy overheads of CPU use would be an issue for FMV when there is little gameplay involved when FMV intro are sued and Mr Bones handled it ok, would love to know how much overheads True Motion uses mind for both the Saturn and Dreamcast as CRI said that Mepegsoftdec used 50% of the SH4 on the DC . I used to see some people say that games like Final Fantasy would be Impossible on Saturn due the way FMV blends into gameplay, playing Riven on the Saturn with lovely use of Truemotion, blows that myth out the window never mix FMV with real-time sprites

    BTW Treckkie, this isn't a trick question or anything and I'm just generally interested what was for you the best example of FMV on the Saturn? I used to think it was Lupin, but going back to Digital dance mix makes me think that's the best example I saw
    The CPU Overhead is an issue if you want to do something like FF7. Mr.Bones isn't really doing something on that level. THe FMV isn't that high of a frame rate and I don't think it's full screen either. It's also not rendering 3D Polygons. Same with the likes of Riven and what not. If you want to do FF7 you'd probably have to use Cinepak. Truemotion last I checked is using both SH-2s and the DSP. There is probably very little wiggle room for 3D. It also renders the video to a 15-bit RGB VDP1 sprite instead of to a 24-bit RGB background layer like Cinepak. So that also isn't really useful for something like FF7.

    For me the best examples of FMV I can think of on Saturn are these:







    Those are all cinepak samples. They are all full screen, 24-bit color at decent frame rates. The artifacts are minimal and I'd say they look better than most Truemotion samples I've seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Grandia intro was amazing and I've seen many say it runs in the Saturn semi high res mode is that true?
    It does, the FMVs run in the 352x448i resolution mode. However the FMVs are not at that resolution. They are 352x176 and 352x144. They run at 10-12fps with ADX audio and use VDP2 to stretch them to their proper aspect ratio (full screen for the 352x176, 16:9 letterbox for the 352x144). The higher res mode is probably used to help with the stretching while also being used to hide artifacts.

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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    On the subject of Truemotion vs Cinepak, I think this is a pretty good comparison. Clockwork Knight 2 uses Truemotion for the FMVs, however there was a promodisc that had it's intro encoded in Cinepak, and it's actually not a bad encode. Both versions have artifacts and I think do a decent job showing the strengths and weaknesses of each codec:

    Release (Truemotion):


    Promo Disc (Cinepak, 8:51 mark):

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    MR Bones in game FMV is the full screen it does jerk around bit mind you also had polygons with FMV in Time Commando, mind you the less said about that the better, so i don't buy it for FF7 myself, more so when so many Mega-CD games managed it
    I've been going through the games I actually own that use MPEG Sofdec or at least where I see the logo on the back of the case and I have

    Yukya
    Sakura Wars Hanagumi and the Radio show one
    Nighttruth voice and Making of
    Vatlva

    I'm looking forward to running them after to see what the FMV is like, it's been decades since I played most of them

    It does, the FMVs run in the 352x448i resolution mode. However the FMVs are not at that resolution. They are 352x176 and 352x144
    Thanks for the info. Also I never seen Sega Saturn Omakase so thanks for that and yeah Lunar 2 FMV is brilliant

    If I were to list my fav Saturn FMV it would be









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    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    MR Bones in game FMV is the full screen it does jerk around bit mind you also had polygons with FMV in Time Commando, mind you the less said about that the better, so i don't buy it for FF7 myself, more so when so many Mega-CD games managed it
    Most games on the Sega CD are either doing things like Cinepak or raw uncompressed formats which require less CPU overhead. They're also very low color and frame rate. My point I was getting at was that Truemotion wouldn't be a good fit for it as it would require too much CPU overhead while trying to draw 3D Polygonal models at the same time. With Cinepak it should definitely be doable.

    As for the examples you posted, they're not bad, but the Truemotion ones the low color and dithering really does show through when you look at them without the fake scanline filter over top. It kind of makes it look like a slightly better version of the best we saw on the Sega CD at times.

  8. #68
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    Most games on the Sega CD are either doing things like Cinepak or raw uncompressed formats which require less CPU overhead..
    Slipheed is handling nice FMV with polygons on a humble Mega CD, even the 3DO could handle polygons with FMV backgrounds in Star Blade. Cadillacs and Dinosaurs had nice FMV while using sprites.
    It not like FF7 had wonderful use of polygons its in transition screens, it was usually just a couple of low polygon characters with a 2D backdrop that would then transition into a lovely FMV, but thats going off on a tangent


    Trying to get FMV across to what it was like to watching FMV on a real system on a CRT TV screen back in the day is next to impossible these days, more so on youtube. Artifacts show up more and also some uploads give the impression that the FMV window was bigger to what it really was Ect. I have a question to ask Treck, what is the screen res of Sonic Jam FMV window?. The intro FMV for some reason looks like in running in a higer res window to most other True Motion, not sure if thats the case or not mind

    Also bee going though my Mpeg Sofdec games and wasn't that impressed with Sakura, but I did like the FMV in NightTruth and Yukyu (also got some lovely Mpeg Cart FMV too)


    Some more nice examples of quailty Saturn FMV





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  9. #69
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    Slipheed is handling nice FMV with polygons on a humble Mega CD, even the 3DO could handle polygons with FMV backgrounds in Star Blade. Cadillacs and Dinosaurs had nice FMV while using sprites.
    Yes, and those are all using either Cinepak or raw uncompressed formats. I'm not denying these systems can do FMV with Polygons on top. I'm arguing that Cinepak is the better fit for it over TrueMotion. Please take a moment to let that sink in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Andromeda View Post
    I have a question to ask Treck, what is the screen res of Sonic Jam FMV window?. The intro FMV for some reason looks like in running in a higer res window to most other True Motion, not sure if thats the case or not mind
    Open them in VLC Player and see for yourself.

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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
    . I'm arguing that Cinepak is the better fit for it over TrueMotion. Please take a moment to let that sink in.
    That's fair, though it be nice to know how much resources True Motion on the Saturn actually takes up. I seen people say it needs dual SH-2 and even the DSP chip, Seem a little complex for FMV and also sad that the same effort was done to improve real time graphics


    Open them in VLC Player and see for yourself.
    I only asked because I wasn't sure if VLC was 100% accurate and didn't want my head bitten off for getting even the slightest fig wrong. 312X208 it looks more high res than that.


    Back on FMV I was super impressed replaying Harukaze Sentai V-Force, such a shame it was another Saturn title not brought over, was also back on my 3DO and the FMV on that isn't great really; Fifa and Madden aren't really much above the best from the Mega CD.
    I was still impressed with Twisted mind and also loved how the FMV characters were integrated so well with the real time graphics in Killing time and even made translucent. I also when back to the CD-i and it still amazes me how good Lost Eden looks and sounds, the music is phenomenal, The French had such style back in the day


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    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Here you go Blades another Feature with Trip and the 3D0 and also some info on how the M2 was to handle FMV playback











    Speaking of FMV does anyone know what Desire is using on the Saturn or is it some sort of custom codec to do with that Multi Site system or whatnot The game for me features the best quality FMV I've ever seen on the Saturn, it's like Mpeg quality

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  12. #72
    Hero of Algol TrekkiesUnite118's Avatar
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    Desire uses C's Ware's custom Lucid Motion codec. It's designed to work really well for low color animated content. It runs at 15fps with 8bit color.

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    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Very interesting articles TA.

    The most interesting part of 3DO for me is that they were able to get Panasonic on board. Iíve always wondered how much development input they really had.

  14. #74
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Very interesting articles TA.

    The most interesting part of 3DO for me is that they were able to get Panasonic on board. Iíve always wondered how much development input they really had.
    I think many were just eyeing up some of the profits that could be made from gaming. It seemed like a good bet with Pansonic not having to do much R&D too. It just seemed madness on how the software profits were shared.
    It was a great move by SEGA to get Hitachi and JVC ( Matsushita) on board with the Saturn. Overlooking JVC 250 retail channels in Japan, Matsushita had loads and Hitachi used its 500 Media stores to get more Saturn's out there, helping to break NCL hold on retail


    I know Trip told EDGE SEGA and Matsushita were just a handshake away from a deal but issues over just where SEGA label would be put ECT, put pay to that. There was a rare interview with Isao Okawa online and he said that we wanted to do a deal, but Suzuki-san who was head of SEGA Arcade R&D (not Yu Suzuki) turned it down over spec's not got enough for the AM Teams. Looking at Konami M2 Arcade games maybe he had a point?. It was also heavily rumoured that in the likes of EDGE, that it was Okawa-san who made Nakayama-san step down over poor SEGA's cash flow

    I have a lot of time for Nakayama-san mind. Under his leadership SEGA AM and Consumer teams became the best in the business for me. It was a great ride, never to be bettered. For all his PR crap and spin I have a lot of time for Trip too, always great interviews and talk from that man and what he did with EA was amazing
    Last edited by Team Andromeda; 05-02-2021 at 07:58 AM.
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  15. #75
    The Future is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingESWAT Veteran Leynos's Avatar
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    I know the frame rate gets a little spotty at times but it looks really sharp on Saturn. Radiant Silvergun.

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